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Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:56 pm
by richygorgan
Unfortunately for you, the people want walking, if Mount&Blade had your fighting system then it would be complete IMO, but it hasnt so i look up to you. People are not ready to take to the air as it feels unnatural and we can't "feel it" and we can't relate to it.

Maybe im just taking the whole medival theme and trying to squash it into your mind, and i dont want that, but i would love:

Sword fighting, on the ground, maybe even with a jump 5x as big as a normal human can with a flip motion to slash your oppnents head (Ive lost it.... i know...anyways ill continue). I would really like ranged combat to be implemented, you know limited arrows and different bows, not so much, but it would be a nice feature.

The enviroment in Determinance was fine, i just felt it needed some human developement, im thinking sparely populated say like far cry on the pc, the odd builing in a big open space but not over run with trees.

And lastly, a story campaign, with obejectives and stuff (Im starting to feel like im talking to some big company onwed by M$ or sony, but hey Mount&andBlade was down with two people and they have a story going with a few quests.

I know im asking alot with your small development team but please try to implement one of these thing, we must have the fighting on ground, IMO thats why people wernt into Determinance, thankyou for reading, from the guy waiting for the Synapse beta XD.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:27 pm
by Archa
I agree agry with richy. Walking is a feature that people missed the most i think. And a story of course. You need something that keeps people in game when nobody is online and a champgaign is really a thing that keeps you playing for a longer time.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:38 pm
by Omroth
Hey guys.

Unfortunately, story is pretty much the opposite direction from where I'm going. I know there's strong support for story-lead-rpgMinance and I won't say never, but that is really properly the opposite direction from Guile.

Determinance has the problem that it has a good control system but no solid identifyable "game" type. So people would turn up and they'd say "hey, this control scheme in an <my favorite genre> game would be amazing! Please make that". And that's my fault.

If I were to put Determinance into a genre, I'd say... deathmatch hand to hand combat? Something like that? And then the single player bit and Duel Arena were always meant to be more like a standard fighter (Soul Calibur with freeform swording was the idea - thus the "Round 1 - fight" stuff) but, well, it didn't work very well.

But this lack of genre-identity is a massive problem. It underlines a huge number of the problems with Determinance's development. I never worked out whether I wanted it to be this 8 player deathmatch/CTF game or this two player fighting game. So I did both. Neither very well. Not having the focus of one genre made it incredibly hard to actually pin down what was wrong with the game, because thing x was wrong with it as a deathmatch game and thing y was wrong with it as a fighting game. I think this is probably the biggest mistake I made.

So Guile is me finally making the decision. Guile is a fighter. It's Soul Calibur with freeform swordery. My aim is to make something that fighting game fans will like, but of course also to make a fighting game which not genre-fans will like.

Determinance was never ever meant to be anything to do with story or rpgness. I know that's what a lot of you guys want but it's not me. I'm a multiplayer guy basically. And what has depressed me hugely is that Determinance is not a game two people can start playing with each other and really like straight away. I think it's an ok deathmatch game to be honest, and if you get 8 people together playing then it's really fun. Most of you guys have seen that. I never made that decision, but Determinance turned out to be a deathmatch game. Guile is a fighting game.

Please stick with me, even though I'm not making a freeform sword rpg. You guys are the core of the Mode7 community and even though I'm not making the thing you want most, I am trying to make something very very good. Archa and Pineapple and Richy and Malakian and the others, you guys have stuck with us despite the mess that Determinance is with hardly any players. And I've, plenty of times, been defensive and difficult and evasive because I was so emotionally tied up with what Determinance is. I can't promise to be completely straightforward about the rest of Mode7's games because we have contracts and NDAs and blah blah blah. But Guile, unlike the others, is an indie game by me and I can promise to be 100% open and talkative and honest about it. I'm not going to do corporate speak when it's critiscised or you guys have an idea I don't like or whatever. And I'm not going to be so scared by failure I can't think clearly about it.

I know that the problem with multiplayer is that if no-one's playing it then you can't... play it. But don't write Guile off because it's still a multiplayer game. First, it's going to be better because you only need 2, not SIX, people to really experience it. Second, it's going to be better because more people are going to damn well like it and we'll have a bigger number of people playing. Third, and least importantly, I'm going to have fun trying to make some AI which is at least fun to play against for a little while.

Also, Guile is about going back to fun. I plan on patching it often and if it breaks a bit with the new patch and I have to rush out a fix then I won't worry too much about it. We did Determinance professionally (believe it or not) and that was right for then and that's why Mode7 is a real company with employees and an office right now. But Guile is doing indie properly.

And finally, walking. Omfg. I'll let you guys play Alpha 1 and see what you think we should do (movement is much less of a deal in Guile, trying to be more functional and less, erm, whatever the hell movement in Determinance was). Putting in walking is difficult because the entire body has to animate with walking and that means the animation is controlling the body, rather than all our funky IK and so on. It's certainly possible, but it's a massive pain. But maybe I could work something out, I am uber-leet-hacker-coder after all. But yeah, if it's still number 1 deal when you've played Alpha 1 then I'll seriously try and make it happen.

Guile Alpha 1 will be out in the not too distant and that's a promise. I'll try and give a definite date later this week but we're talking a week or two NOT months. I really can't wait to hear what you have to say about it.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:53 pm
by rats_
\o/ Fuck yeah! That sounds fiiiine. Do want.
Also, long time no see forums! :o
I've just been hanging around the IRC lately...

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:17 am
by Archa
Few things that come tigether with walking and could make Guile better:
So when you walk, your movement is quite limited, like bounding box limits you in determinance, so if you walk, your room is quite limited and its possible to create some more detailed environment around you, because it doesnt need to be that big as in determinance that adds some more eye candy and also makes it possible to add some obstacles and cool stuff to the gameplay. Also it just feels more realistic and friendly to the player. When you play a fighting game you already expect characters to walk and thats more natural. I remember long time ago i read about determinance something like: you could swing your sword every way you want and like watch a movie and recreate the moves that you like... I tought: WOW that would be so cool! But when i open the game i see i cant recreate anything from real life, because in real life i dont fly, i think that gives some players dissapointment and thats why they quit playing.
Thats my oppinion about walking.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:56 pm
by richygorgan
Walking FTW, i can understand why its a pain but i think it will be worth it, as for Guile being mutiplayer i kinda expected that, i dont stay on multiplayer games long, like i finish a FPS and then i have a few matches on multiplayer and then thats it, im done. But Determinance did grab my time slightly longer so im hoping this will to. Im sort of one of the crybabys that really wanted walking in Determinance but kept my mouth shut with a blanket XD. Now that im getting that im gonna love slashing people and winning 2x more.

What did you think about my jumping idea above? Is it stupid? I just thought it could be a good feature to have, if it dosent work it would be easy to disable im guessing.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:05 pm
by Archa
I like that idea :)

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:49 am
by merglasch
sry for goin a lil bit off topic but is there a web page for guile yet?

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:12 am
by richygorgan
merglasch wrote:sry for goin a lil bit off topic but is there a web page for guile yet?
Im guessing when the authors are readed they will redesign the website so theres space for all games to co-exsiston the webiste.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:24 am
by Omroth
Hey Merglasch, yeah there's no Guile website yet. We'll knock something up quickly soon and in the long run we do indeed need to sort out our website to support multiple games.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:58 am
by richygorgan
Refering to blog:
Yay walking, plus a dash action i think. Would it be silly to be able to jump high and flip while slashing, you know, for the skilled and cool people 8).

Whats happened to Synapse?! Its almost like guile has taken over, im still waiting for that beta :/. Dont be like World of Goo people, they say you can be a beta tester since you preordered the game and never let you, and they go to release the game and they delay it for a wii version :/.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:09 pm
by Paul
Ian will be back on Synapse soon, and Synapse is still progressing. We've just going through a revision on the concept art, and I'm working on concept music as well as some story stuff at the moment. Don't worry!

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:53 pm
by Archa
Here is what I imagine as a good gameplay for sword fighting.

The old DT system was good at start, except you moved too damn fast. Now when we walk, its waaay more easy to hit already. If you take off all the bug stuff its really good. Thats for collision suff. Add blocking with that 90 degree, to make it a bit easier to block, because it was pretty strange in DT.

Next thing which ive been thinking of and poropably will be damn hard to understand. If you move the mouse faster, you hit stronger. If you hit the other sword, the power of your hit pushes the other sword away. If you hit stronger the enemies sword gets hit back further. With this i dont mean you leave the opponent disarmed, the sword just gets hit aside, but is still in opponents hand. If both player hit and theire swords clash, then both swords get hit back, but the guy who hits weaker, gets his sword hit back further than the other guy. There is that stamina bar on the right side. Maybe it could be used so if you swing much, your power gets lower and lower with each hit and you must stop hitting to get it back and be strong enough. If the bar gets to zero, you do zero damage, opponent can hit your sword back very easy and you are oppened for an attack. The importance of hitting stronger then would be not only to make more damage, but also to open up your opponents defence.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:15 pm
by richygorgan
^^I think that would be a very good and welcomed system.

Re: Guile, give what the people want.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:17 pm
by withermage
I'm curious as to how many of you on the dev team or in the community have played JK II: Jedi Outcast?

That game to this day has a strong community addicted to the duel (1 on 1 sword, or lightsaber in this case, fighting). I myself have been playing that game on and off for the past 6 years. I've yet to see another game match in terms of skill, finesse or just plan old fun when logging on to a server and dueling against your buddies.

Clan-duels and all that, the game was fun. I'm not holding out on lucasarts or EA Games to make another one, as it's likely the success with the first was purely luck.

Anyways, my love for that game has brought me to yours, looking for something new that will have a stronger, more active player base but still offer that amazing feeling of sword fighting finesse.

I see the discussions here about jumping and being able to slash while jumping (someone said 5 times as high as a regular human being) and Ij ust thought JK II: Jedi Outcast was a pretty applicable comparison.