Large idea for improving combat

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Cyrai
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:08 pm

Large idea for improving combat

Post by Cyrai » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:55 pm

I like the idea of this game, bheain concern is that standing still is, in my opinion, too powerful. From what I understand, whenever a unit enters combat, they can have a few advantages. The advantages I've seen are 'not moving', 'first sight', 'superior cover', and 'aiming'. When two units open fire on each other, they compare advantages. If one unit has more advantages, it wins.

This is a cool idea on how to eliminate randomness and still have tactics. The problem is that there's too few advantages, and that standing still and never moving gets too many of them. A unit that's standing behind superior cover and aiming gets every advantage. If a unit enters its field of sight, that unit is dead except in a small handful of cases. What makes this worse is that moving to a different position automatically takes away half of the benefits until they stop behind superior cover again. Unless you're being flanked, there is basically no reason to ever move.

There needs to be some reason for units to move around. Otherwise, the tactics that matter the most is where you place your units or where they start. Matches are too often determined before the first second. I thought about this for a while, and here's what I think the best way to fix this problem is. The main ideas are that aiming shouldn't be the same as what a unit can see, and weapons should give additional advantages and disadvantages depending on where the enemy is in relation to where you're aiming.

When you're aiming right now, if you can see it, you're aimed on it. That is not how weapons or sight works. When a sniper is looking through his scope and ready to fire, he can only hit a small percentage of what he can see, and the same is true to lesser degrees for the other weapons. When a unit aims, the aiming should cover only a part of what they can see. To make things clear to the user, these areas should be shown on the UI. I'm using MSPaint here, so forgive the crappy illustrations. This is what it might look without aiming (http://yfrog.com/11noaimingj), aiming with a sniper rifle(http://yfrog.com/gisniperj), aiming with a machine gun(http://yfrog.com/jumachinegunhj), and aiming with a shotgun(http://yfrog.com/b9shotgunkj). Anything outside the red cone would not count as aiming.

Taken by itself, that idea would just make sniper rifles worse than other weapons, which is why my second idea is to give different advantages and disadvantages to weapons based on where the enemy is in the cone. This is what it might look like for without aiming(http://yfrog.com/jynoaimingadjustmentsj), aiming a sniper rifle(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5900 ... tments.jpg), aiming a shotgun(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3240/s ... tments.jpg), and aiming a machine gun(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/806/ ... tments.jpg). Again, to make things clear to the player, these would all be visible on the screen., although it would look much less ugly

This would go a long way to making standing still and aiming less overpowered. Flanking is actually easier if an enemy is aiming because they're at a disadvantage if you're outside the cone of fire. This also clearly differentiates the weapons. If a unit steps into a sniper's aim, that unit is dead. If a sniper is aiming somewhere else, the sniper is dead. Machine guns have a wide range, but they don't have as much power at a distance. If you think you will be flanked, you can counter your disadvantage by not aiming at a specific area and being ready to fire wherever, but if a unit does happen to wander where you would be aiming, you don't get your advantage.

This idea obviously isn't finished. Shotguns should not get a flat 0 even when they're not aiming, to start. The numbers and the angles will probably need to be tweaked. You would need to be able to see where exactly the enemy is aiming to be able to properly counter. The AI would need to be reworked. But it would make people much more likely to move from position to position, which is a good start
Logo
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Logo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:27 pm

Is it really a big issue? There's a ton of ways to counter someone standing still behind superior cover.

You can flank them (a pretty big one), hit them with explosives, out range them (Sniper vs MG, MG vs Shotgun), complete objectives, attack close to them (MG vs Sniper or Shotgun vs MG), run away (if tied or ahead), or bait them (draw their fire with a unit that pops out -> retreats while another unit pops out and takes aim).

If you know exactly where someone is and they're not moving then you're in a pretty good position to handle them as they're a 100% known threat.

At best I'd say there should be some sort of tie breaker in elimination so that you can't just camp and get ties.
Simulate: the answer to all of your problems.
Cyrai
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Cyrai » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:52 pm

Logo wrote:Is it really a big issue? There's a ton of ways to counter someone standing still behind superior cover.

You can flank them (a pretty big one), hit them with explosives, out range them (Sniper vs MG, MG vs Shotgun), complete objectives, attack close to them (MG vs Sniper or Shotgun vs MG), run away (if tied or ahead), or bait them (draw their fire with a unit that pops out -> retreats while another unit pops out and takes aim).

If you know exactly where someone is and they're not moving then you're in a pretty good position to handle them as they're a 100% known threat.

At best I'd say there should be some sort of tie breaker in elimination so that you can't just camp and get ties.
Yeah. Some of these ideas might even be in place, but there's no way for the user to know. There's no concrete information on how long a gun's range is, so you have to guess where you can outrange someone. It goes the same way in reverse, where you don't know how close you have to be before you can beat them. Flanking them works great if you can approach them from the opposite direction, but you can't tell precisely where you can flank them from
Logo
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Logo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:55 pm

That's what simulate is for. I would agree that some of the info could be better displayed such as the range, while some of it is already displayed like Line of Sight and using V. If they're standing still behind cover it shouldn't take too long to figure it out.
Simulate: the answer to all of your problems.
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Lu-Tze
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Lu-Tze » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:27 pm

Game -94781 is a textbook example of why staying still isn't the be all and end all.
I barely move my units all game, except for getting the Sniper at the bottom into position.
I think i've got the perfect setup.
But, especially as this is a Light game, he can see exactly how i'm set up, and concocts a plan to defeat it. He wins the game with a single perfect move that counters my defence. By not moving, it made it very very easy for him to simulate the outcomes until he found one that was palatable.

I think this will have the opposite effect of what you intend, and just make it all the more likely that will will get you head shot off as soon as you look around a corner, because i'd say probably 80% of the time when I set up looking in a direction, I know which particular opening the enemy is gonna come through, and you are just going to make that more and more powerful. Assaulting through doors into defended rooms becomes even less likely to result in success.
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JeP
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by JeP » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:01 am

Logo wrote:That's what simulate is for.
Totally.
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TheBeefiest
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by TheBeefiest » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:20 am

Cyrai wrote:
Logo wrote:... There's no concrete information on how long a gun's range is...

Yes there is infact, if you hold V it will show the exact shotgunners range.

And I mostly disgaree with this thread topic. I did have a game once where i had a tiny area to defend, and had three guys that didnt have to move the entire match, murdering three attackers. That was one game out of 100 or more now. This is not a significant deal. To avoid this: Do not let your opponent out bid you on secure, if its too small, its too easy to defend. Simple answer, bid more area!


As far as i am concerned this game has amazing balance, especially for a beta. Only 2 exceptions: The rockets are no fun for me (cant really say on balance just fun) And snipers seem to get murdered 3/4 across the map a bit too often it seems.
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Coded_One
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Coded_One » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:19 pm

While some of the ideas are good (Snipers need a HUGE boost) the problem that you state is nonexistent. If you're getting killed by camping units, you're doing it wrong. There are so many ways to counter campers, all of which were mentioned by Logo. I've never had an issue with campers, and in the games that I have lost to campers, it was generally my fault. If they're standing still, you have the tactical advantage. Take your time and concoct a perfect plan.

But yes, Snipers need a boost.
Ze0n
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Ze0n » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:53 pm

Here, why you shouldn't stand still: -92278
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TheBeefiest
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by TheBeefiest » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:28 am

And a counter point to show staying still works great: -94222

The only way he could have beat me was come in from two angles into that closest room at the exact same time, which you would not really know to do unless you got a look at my unit in the doorway first.


The only proposition i could get behind would be to allow spotting through low walls, then in this games example, he could have seen from the window that i was watching that room, and then had a chance to double enter it.
Lyx
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Lyx » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:54 am

I'll skip the part where i explain why your idea has horrible sideffects (which were the reason for doing it as it is done currently), and instead point out that your premises are untrue: Units in move DO have an advantage in firefights! It's just not mentioned in the tutorial and not in the encounter messages: While moving makes you less probable to KILL someone, it also makes you less probably to BE KILLED by someone. The reason is simple: Killing a moving target takes longer - if done well enough time to bridge the gap from one cover to the next.

It may be that this advantage is currently a tiny little bit too weak, and it may also be that another unmentioned mechanic (aimbonus) makes it difficult to overwhelm campers by numbers, but the problem as you describe it doesnt exist. It is true that the game is biased towards defense, but the reasons for this are not disadvantages of movement.
Cyrai
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:08 pm

Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Cyrai » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:11 pm

Yeah, after playing more, that idea is completely unnecessary. Can we close threads on this forum?
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Omroth
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Re: Large idea for improving combat

Post by Omroth » Sat May 01, 2010 9:00 am

Hi Cyrai.

You could just edit your top post and put a thing at the top saying "I no longer think this" or something. If you really want it gone I can delete it for you.

Ian
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