[BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

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LapinDuracell
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:20 pm

[BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by LapinDuracell » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:37 pm

Hello,

It might have been already discussed, but I haven't found it by searching the forum.

I'm a newbie but I think this shouldn't happen : game 92417, opponent has two MGs trapped in a one door room, I have one MG in the inner corner covering the entrance to the next room. Both enters, but one is doing a chicken dance to distract me, and the other shoots. My MG hasn't even shot one bullet. How realistic is this supposed to be ?

This exploit of the targeting priority system seems pretty well known, I'd like to know if it's supposed to stay, because this is quite disappointing for a rational game...
Ze0n
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:58 pm

Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by Ze0n » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:34 pm

If it's pretty well known, why not plan for it?
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TheBeefiest
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by TheBeefiest » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:34 am

Absolutely NOT an exploit. This is the only way to enter a room where a person is sitting still. And i dont mean to sound harsh, but it was a light game, you should have seen this coming. There is a counter to it, predict which of his units will be the distraction and set him to ignore for long enough to shoot the real gunner.
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JeP
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by JeP » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:05 am

This is just why you shouldn't stand still,
especially in a light game. This makes you
sooo predictable that the enemy can do whatever
he wants, time it perfectly, and you be able to do
nothing about it.

Plus your position in the game was far from
being perfect, a sniper alone in a room is no good,
to long to aim, and your soldier in a corner,
in front of window, by testing it you should
have seen the outcome coming.

The more you try scenarios, the better you'll be, that's all.


And for the distraction thing, it's still a risk, if you
don't predict well you opponent it can all go
wrong for you (or mostly : your soldiers), but I'm
really glad there is something to do against campers.
LapinDuracell
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:20 pm

Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by LapinDuracell » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:37 pm

Well, I see from your rather harsh reactions that your are all using it, but believe me it's really an exploit. The sort of exploit that can discourage newbies to invest in the game. Remember it's a beta so my post was made to help improve, not to receive your lessons.

@ Zeon, what could I plan exactly ? I knew they were coming out, but I believed I could at least kill one...

@ TheBeefiest, Oh, and how am I supposed to know which one I should ignore ? 50/50 ? Remember it's was the first time I saw this cheesy tactic, so I couldn't predict one of them was going to duck dance... My opponent gave me a better counter-trick, which is to ignore the zone after the door. But what if the shooter goes to this zone and fires ? I can't see any counter if the opponent plan is well done.

I know my position was bad, it was bad from the beginning. This particular match is not the subject, I just wanted to know wether this game is about masterizing the inner flaws of the AI (as any basic RTS) or about real tactics...

Everyone should have the same understanding of the rules (as in chess), and not spend hours in the forum to know the last exploit discovered. If not, this game will be like many others RTS, where only very few players with a lot of time to spend will enjoy multiplayer, while the others stay in solo or LAN to avoid being humiliated.
MrFoo
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:14 pm

Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by MrFoo » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:17 pm

It's not an exploit, Ormoth knows about it and has called it a valid tactic.
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Coded_One
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by Coded_One » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:50 pm

As others have said, it's a valid tactic. Not to repeat what others have said, but it's one of the few ways to beat campers. If this "bug" was somehow fixed, it would make campers even MORE powerful. Campers getting powerful = bad.

And this "bug" hardly makes the game "humiliating" as you say. Just as in chess, there are specific maneuvers that one can learn that may make the "newbies" humiliated. It is still a strategy game, it's just a strategy game with a few good tricks to keep it interesting.

Your posts turn this bug report into a way for you to whine that you lost. We all lose sometimes. Pick yourself up, take note of the new tactic, and play some more games.
Ze0n
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:58 pm

Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by Ze0n » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:21 pm

LapinDuracell wrote:@ TheBeefiest, Oh, and how am I supposed to know which one I should ignore ? 50/50 ? Remember it's was the first time I saw this cheesy tactic, so I couldn't predict one of them was going to duck dance... My opponent gave me a better counter-trick, which is to ignore the zone after the door. But what if the shooter goes to this zone and fires ? I can't see any counter if the opponent plan is well done.
For the record, if it's the first time you see something done, then it's not "well known".
mechatronix
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by mechatronix » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:08 am

The final design should go for realism not for "i hate campers". Campers/defenders should be powerful. A defender in a fixed position and focused on a door should take out anything that tries to rush through the door. It's simple logic.

I think the game needs flashbangs and breaches. That would be a proper counter to campers.
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Blindsight
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by Blindsight » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:07 am

How is it not realistic to distract someone while someone else runs in to shoot the guy? There is no real way to do cover fire in this game, actual body distractions are more realistic than having no way to attract attention of a shooter IMO.

Mind you, I haven't used the tactic as of yet, only had it used against me. I still see it as quite valid and good for the game.
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smart bunny
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by smart bunny » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:14 am

It's not an exploit, it is a valid tactic, and next time you will be prepared for it. ;)

Do you think it's fair that your opponent should be trapped in the room? He came up with a way to get around it.
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limavictor426
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by limavictor426 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:53 am

Its definitely a VALID TACTIC and what this kind of game is all about. Its what makes a game like this interesting and allows the good players to make use of it to their advantage. Its the difference between thinking in two and three dimensions, its why I love this sort of game and what gives it longevity.
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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JeP
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by JeP » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:45 pm

LapinDuracell wrote:Everyone should have the same understanding of the rules (as in chess), and not spend hours in the forum to know the last exploit discovered. If not, this game will be like many others RTS, where only very few players with a lot of time to spend will enjoy multiplayer, while the others stay in solo or LAN to avoid being humiliated.
This technique is not that hard to master, and can be tested safely. I find it quite exciting to seek for new tactics, new ways to surprise the enemy, and I don't see the harm in it.
At all.

Plus, distraction is a real world tactic, it's just not done like that, but with the limitations of the game, it's our way to mimic it.
LapinDuracell
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by LapinDuracell » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:35 pm

I agree to the fact that distraction is a real world tactic and can be modelized in the game, BUT even if you distract the defender he should at least fire at one of the target. If he's focused on whatever can pass through the door, it seems logic that if he sees two guys going in two different ways, he chooses one and shoot, and get shot by the remaining one. The outcome would be 1 dead on each side, which is more fair than 2-0, don't you think ? What was the other options anyway, enter the room first knowing there were two guys waiting ?

The fact that it's a "validated" tactics against camping soldiers could just mean that no other way has been found yet to prevent the game to be an isometric Counter Strike. Only counter is the RPG or grenade launcher, if you have one.

To close the subject (from my point of view), I really don't understand why some little haters decided to answer as if I was whining. I suppose it's just the usual ratio of forum trolls. I lost many games and I'm happy to learn, but as it is a beta I just asked whether the developpers want this game to be about knowing tricks, even if not realistic, or about pure planning and outwitting the opponent. Regarding distraction, it's just a trick, even if it's useful to make the game more dynamic.

Bye
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Coded_One
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Re: [BUG OR FEATURE?] Distraction

Post by Coded_One » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:23 am

LapinDuracell wrote:I agree to the fact that distraction is a real world tactic and can be modelized in the game, BUT even if you distract the defender he should at least fire at one of the target. If he's focused on whatever can pass through the door, it seems logic that if he sees two guys going in two different ways, he chooses one and shoot, and get shot by the remaining one. The outcome would be 1 dead on each side, which is more fair than 2-0, don't you think ? What was the other options anyway, enter the room first knowing there were two guys waiting ?

The fact that it's a "validated" tactics against camping soldiers could just mean that no other way has been found yet to prevent the game to be an isometric Counter Strike. Only counter is the RPG or grenade launcher, if you have one.

To close the subject (from my point of view), I really don't understand why some little haters decided to answer as if I was whining. I suppose it's just the usual ratio of forum trolls. I lost many games and I'm happy to learn, but as it is a beta I just asked whether the developpers want this game to be about knowing tricks, even if not realistic, or about pure planning and outwitting the opponent. Regarding distraction, it's just a trick, even if it's useful to make the game more dynamic.

Bye
Looking back, I'm sorry if my or any other member's posts offended you. Losing isn't fun, and neither is having an entire forum disagree with you. I want to try and respond to your post without being hostile.

While it's true that it would seem logical for your camper to shoot at least one enemy, there are many factors at work. The primary factor is overall game balancing. Time till the killshot is determined by numerous factors including distance. These factors may be difficult to adjust in order to give an advantage to campers without completely breaking further game balancing.

To the comment that there is no way to counter campers without explosives, I ask you how a distraction ISN'T a valid counter. It makes perfect sense as has been stated earlier by many others.

In response to your closing statements, I, once again, apologize on behalf of myself and other "little haters" and "usual ratio of forum trolls". However, your statement that this game isn't about "knowing tricks" is quite ironic. If this game isn't about learning tricks, then what is it about? It's about developing a grand, but fine tuned, strategy that uses your intelligence, prediction skills, and other tactics to defeat the enemy. Perhaps you don't understand that real war strategies are usually plans comprised of several small tactics or "little tricks". Just to name a few, there is the blitzkrieg, shock and awe, divide and conquer, ambush, Trojan horse, and many others coined by famous strategists including the brilliant minds of Sun Tsu, Norman Schwartscof, Macarthur, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, and Alexander the Great. War is made up of "little tricks", so I really don't understand what the huge problem with the distraction tactic is.

And, for the third time, I apologize if we offended you. This is a very nice community of players and I only wish that this forum doesn't boil down into the troll-filled shithole that is 4chan.
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