Do you understand synapse cover rules?

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What are cover-advantages like in the pictured situation?

Red has cover advantage
0
No votes
Green has cover advantage
34
63%
Both have equal cover
18
33%
No idea
2
4%
Something else
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 54
Gnarf
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Gnarf » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm

Seeing as we went there...
Lyx wrote:Why more realistic? Well, the above mentioned algos actually have little to do with what would make sense if you could see the situation in 3D from a first person perspective.
WHICH IS THE SITUATION THAT EVERY COVER-SYSTEM ATTEMPTS TO SIMULATE ANYWAY.

So yeah, them other systems you suggested, they're used for simulating guys shooting each other, and this "3D FPS" system, on the other hand, is for simulating guys who view the world from first person perspectives shooting each other.

And, you know, if, in my mind, realistic and intuitive were opposite of each other, then I would perhaps not be so quick to accuse others of losing contact with reality. Lol, etc.
Lyx
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Lyx » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:03 pm

Your ability to pure ignorance in every possible way is remarkable. Anyways, i'm out of here - have fun in wonderland, but dont whine when it someday bites you in the ass.
Lyx: "Wot? Why do i lose that one?"
Chem: " if(playerIsLyx()) chanceOfWinning *= 0.3f;"
Lyx: "Damnit om!"
Gnarf
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Gnarf » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:42 pm

Image
- Your ability to pure ignorance in every possible way is remarkable.
- If there was anything remarkable about you, I'd have a good comeback for that.
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Faxmachinen
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Faxmachinen » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:10 pm

TheBeefiest wrote:You can't really call a beta unintuitive yet, maybe undocumented?
You'll have to explain that one.
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Epicurus
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Epicurus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:11 am

The amount of bitterness in this thread seems totally uncalled-for to me. This is just a discussion about cover, why not keep the tone neutral?

In any case, I wonder if there would be a simple way to show a player the definite cover difference between two units in-game - such as a line that appears when you move the LOS-cursor from your unit to an enemy unit that demarkates 1/3 of the distance both ways. That way, you know whichever shooter as more cover within the 1/3 of the line closest to them is the one with the superior cover.

I assume that when a unit is deemed to have cover relative to another, then that means if they crouch they will not be shootable? Any word on what the formula is for when a standing unit can see a unit crouching behind cover - i.e. how close the croucher needs to be relative to the cover in order not to be seen?
roy7
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by roy7 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:46 am

This discussion reminded me of how in XCom you could see your % chance to hit people because of things like cover, smoke, etc. I wonder if they can't just give you a simple visibility % number based on the covers between you and the target?
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TheBeefiest
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by TheBeefiest » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:47 am

roy7 wrote:This discussion reminded me of how in XCom you could see your % chance to hit people because of things like cover, smoke, etc. I wonder if they can't just give you a simple visibility % number based on the covers between you and the target?
I think that would be less intuitive, because then people will think thats a random chance.
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Faxmachinen
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Faxmachinen » Sat May 01, 2010 5:36 pm

Epicurus wrote:In any case, I wonder if there would be a simple way to show a player the definite cover difference between two units in-game - such as a line that appears when you move the LOS-cursor from your unit to an enemy unit that demarkates 1/3 of the distance both ways. That way, you know whichever shooter as more cover within the 1/3 of the line closest to them is the one with the superior cover.
Good idea. Perhaps the "+1 superior cover" should appear above each piece of cover that is counted as yours?
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zoog
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by zoog » Sun May 02, 2010 11:15 am

Faxmachinen wrote:Good idea. Perhaps the "+1 superior cover" should appear above each piece of cover that is counted as yours?
That sounds good, and maybe a number above your head telling the total amount of cover (like "+2 cover"), when you click on an enemy you can also easily see his/her total cover above his/her head.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Pandarsenic » Sun May 02, 2010 11:22 am

zoog wrote:
Faxmachinen wrote:Good idea. Perhaps the "+1 superior cover" should appear above each piece of cover that is counted as yours?
That sounds good, and maybe a number above your head telling the total amount of cover (like "+2 cover"), when you click on an enemy you can also easily see his/her total cover above his/her head.
Cover is only relative to position.

You'd need a cover check option that would show relative cover between the unit and a given point.
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smart bunny
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by smart bunny » Sun May 02, 2010 4:33 pm

Why would you post
Discussion welcome
and then slate anyone who tried to discuss :shock:

This was interesting - I voted for green having superior cover and was surprised to discover they were equal. Maybe that needs to be a bit clearer in the 'how to play' etc?
Cyrai
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Cyrai » Mon May 03, 2010 10:38 pm

Cover is calculated in 3D. I had an enemy unit standing at a window. A ways away, I had a crouched unit. The enemy unit was able to see and shoot my unit. If this was truly 2D, a window would hide all crouched units regardless of distance because your unit wouldn't be able to look 'over' the cover and see the ground.
mwalk10
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by mwalk10 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:04 pm

To bring an end to all the realism arguments, wouldn't it be possible to render the scene from each of the combatants perspective, and count the number of visible pixels on each unit? Then look at the difference / ratio to see who has an advantage. The performance hit wouldn't be that bad (render 2 extra frames per combat start), especially if lighting, textures and such were turned off.

Using this system it would be possible to give corners a partial cover bonus, or simply draw only low walls.

As a side effect, you could buff the sniper sniper by giving him a better zoom (lower FOV), giving him a bigger target to hit and therefore negating some of the effects of cover. Adjusting the level of zoom would give you a sliding scale to change the effectiveness as well.
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Epicurus
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Re: Do you understand synapse cover rules?

Post by Epicurus » Tue May 04, 2010 12:04 am

Cyrai wrote:Cover is calculated in 3D. I had an enemy unit standing at a window. A ways away, I had a crouched unit. The enemy unit was able to see and shoot my unit. If this was truly 2D, a window would hide all crouched units regardless of distance because your unit wouldn't be able to look 'over' the cover and see the ground.
You can simulate that the units are "seeing" in 3D by using the right formulae - but you can also do it by using formulas that don't match what real 3D would produce. There is concern that FS uses the latter rather than the former. Your example is consistent with both true 3D but also just some simple formula that says "when relative distance of cover between two units = whatever, then unit 1 can see unit 2"
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