Uneven Loadouts

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limavictor426
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Uneven Loadouts

Post by limavictor426 » Mon May 03, 2010 8:13 am

This is just a whine but im getting a lot of uneven loadouts. Ive just started a game where ive got 2 machine guns and a shotgun and my opponent has 2 machine guns and a rocket launcher, the game is disputed and we are therefore on opposite sides of the screen. I have to move he can camp. I have to move because 1/The shotgun is too limited in range so until he gets closer im effectively playing 2 men against 3. Secondly, hes going to hit me with missiles which I cant do. This game suits campers so surely an even loadout is essential to keep it a fair game.
Ive got another game where one of my men is stuck in a room and cant even see outside to shoot.
Ive got another game where my opponent has all three men in buildings one of which has half walls on each side of it with two of his men in the building. Im stuck outside and the only building I can run for cover already has his third man in it. Even if I do make it inside its going to be pretty boring as I cant stick my head out without getting shot and hes not going to move his two men.
Ive got one match where neither myself or my opponent have moved for 8 rounds as to do so will mean losing so we are both just hitting prime without giving any orders at all.
I could give lots more examples.
I really like this game as long as its on disputed as its fairer from the starting position and its longer in turns. I just wish the random units could be switched off and you could choose your own. Its very frustrating and for me spoiling a good game. Its encouraging camping and very boring games.
We really need to lose the random element, allow personal choice of loadout and get rid of the standing still bonus.
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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zoog
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by zoog » Mon May 03, 2010 8:54 am

limavictor426 wrote:and get rid of the standing still bonus.
Maybe something like a "pre-emptive" or covering fire option can be implemented, which can be used to eliminate targets on very specific locations. Like when someone is behind a small wall, and you are somewhere else behind a normal wall, you can give an order to start shooting at a very specific location once your guy steps out of the cover from the tall wall. So you get a time bonus because you started aiming/shooting earlier than the other guy. Still I don't know how this would work out in the actual gameplay and maybe it neglects to benefits of good cover too much.
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limavictor426
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by limavictor426 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:02 am

Image

This is one example, even if I could make it to cover its not going to make for a fun game.
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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Omroth
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Omroth » Mon May 03, 2010 12:34 pm

Hi limavictor426.

Fow now can I suggest you play with the Advanced option in "Create Game"? Using this you are able to change unit loadouts and set starting positions pretty easily. The first patch will bring the ability to generate random levels of any kind and then mess around with the unit deployments.

Ian
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Logo » Mon May 03, 2010 2:21 pm

Personally I like playing games like the one you linked. There's a lot of fun in the challenge of dealing with odd starting positions.

In a game like the one you linked the top MG can probably run straight up and duck behind that cover wall. The 2nd MG can probably do the same or run to the right. The small columns in the bottom should protect him from being shot.

The lone MG on the right can probably run out to the left and up to get into a more useful position, possibly on turn 2. That way we can cover the case of the left most MG retreating south. The bottom MGs can't fire on him if he hugs the outer wall of the building he's in. After running up he can also cut across to the right.

So it'll take a turn, but you'll have all your men to safety and all. From there you just need to devise a plan to assault the top left position. There are at least 2 safe entrances from the bottom MGs: the left and the top. On the left entrance you may have to duck to avoid the MGs on the bottom right. Most likely you'll want to try and take up the guy on the top left using your 3 troops and force a 1-0 win.

Honestly I think you may have an advantage. It's going to be difficult for your opponent to save that left most MG and if you can get all 3 MGs into the top left building he's going to have a hard time assaulting it.

I've had so many games that start out with a unit in a bad position, it's only a problem when you have 2 bullet based units in line of sight of each other or a shotgun in close line of sight of an explosives unit.
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limavictor426
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by limavictor426 » Mon May 03, 2010 3:46 pm

Advanced option it is, thanks Omroth, didnt know I could do that :D

Logo...all three of my opponents can gain a stationary position behind cover before me. the two in the building at 5pm already have a bead on me. At best im going to get away and hide, all my test results lost me at least one player. My point is its no fun when your player has a tactical advatage by doing nothing and as long as he does nothing he will beat me every time. Put an uneven loadout into the mix and you will soon reach a point when experienced players will know the outcome of a game before starting it.
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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Oddball
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Oddball » Tue May 04, 2010 2:23 pm

why should u start at a disadvantage because of a borked load or map spawn. 1 side shouldnt need to run for cover while the other takes potshots. thats not balanced!

@ LV if you see me on pop a challenge to me i will play a set game just wont put faith in the random mechanics until its patched.

i think that when looking for a game a 3,4 or 5 man game should be selectable on top of the other modes.
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noClue
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by noClue » Tue May 04, 2010 2:45 pm

I think that we are in need of a preview screen before we decide to enter a game. Someone could very easily create an unbalanced map and invite people to it. I've also noticed some really bad randomly generated maps with units positioned like this:

O <-host
^ <-looking
-- <-half wall
O <-challenger
^

So once the game starts you'll lose one or more units before anything even happens. A preview window of the map layout would help us decide if we want to play it.
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Omroth
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Omroth » Tue May 04, 2010 3:05 pm

NoClue, the generator no longer creates maps like that. (Or it certainly shouldn't).

OddBall - there's a difference between "broken" loadouts (which still occasionally happens in Extermination with uneven unit numbers), and "unbalanced".

Logo puts it very well - the texture that comes from "unbalance" is a very important part of the design for me - having to be completely balanced can be boring. And the Duplicate scoring really takes away the notion of unbalance in this situation.

Having said that, there are many options available for making perfectly balanced situations to play, and I will continue to add them. I understand that there are a lot of people who prefer a balanced approach.

Ian
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zoog
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by zoog » Tue May 04, 2010 4:28 pm

Solution to this "problem" is, like put forth by someone else on this forum, to change sides after the first match and base scoring on the 2 matches or something along those lines.
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Oddball
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Oddball » Tue May 04, 2010 4:38 pm

Omroth wrote:NoClue, the generator no longer creates maps like that. (Or it certainly shouldn't).

OddBall - there's a difference between "broken" loadouts (which still occasionally happens in Extermination with uneven unit numbers), and "unbalanced".

Logo puts it very well - the texture that comes from "unbalance" is a very important part of the design for me - having to be completely balanced can be boring. And the Duplicate scoring really takes away the notion of unbalance in this situation.

Having said that, there are many options available for making perfectly balanced situations to play, and I will continue to add them. I understand that there are a lot of people who prefer a balanced approach.

Ian
Omroth, your right unbalanced is a little unfair. if the system has changed so they are no longer in view of each other, then this in part lets anyone have a fighting chance. 8)
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Epicurus
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Epicurus » Tue May 04, 2010 5:36 pm

zoog wrote:Solution to this "problem" is, like put forth by someone else on this forum, to change sides after the first match and base scoring on the 2 matches or something along those lines.
Yep, this idea has real potential if scoring and ranking is to be taken seriously in while including random maps that don't need to be perfectly balanced.
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limavictor426
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by limavictor426 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:52 pm

Thanks Oddball, will have to take you up on that :D

Omroth: please dont take my comments or Oddballs as anything other than enthusiasm for a great game we are very excited about. Its great to have such interaction with you and we could both tell you how frustrating it is not to have that link...we are both LSN players and have the scars of neglect left by the Gollops. There is now a significant LSN presence here and I think its great, cant wait for team matches to start. Me and Oddball are old adverseries but I have a feeling we are finally going to be on the same team. It looks like you are really on the ball and are taking all comments on board. Like I say im really excited about this and its a great game :D
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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Omroth
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Omroth » Tue May 04, 2010 6:36 pm

Hi Lima, thanks for that and I'm glad you guys are enjoying the game :) I find interacting with the community about these design issues very useful, and all debate over relative merits and otherwise is totally desired.
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Epicurus
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Re: Uneven Loadouts

Post by Epicurus » Tue May 04, 2010 7:49 pm

Just going to second the message that having a developer subject themselves to the grasping talons of the player community is much appreciated by us.
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