"Essential" features

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NDervish
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby NDervish » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:34 am

FinalBoss wrote:This has likely been mentioned before, but I think it's quite strange that there is no indicator that lets you know when your opponent has locked-in their move.

I'm assuming that since this is such an obvious omission, there must be some sort of reasoning behind it. Are we afraid that people would refuse to be the first to lock-in in random match-ups?


FS is basically an asynchronous game - your planning of your turn is not affected in any way by my planning of mine (until they're both complete and the plans are executed, of course). Mechanically, at least, it doesn't matter to you whether I prime in ten seconds (e.g., if I'm defending in a Secure and you've done nothing to make me consider changing my position) or whether I logged off after submitting my last orders on Friday and won't be back until Monday to see the results of the last round and enter orders for the next one.

FinalBoss wrote:I get tired of having to keep asking if they're done with their move. Don't want to keep friends waiting too long after they've locked in, but I don't want to rush myself for no reason...


Well, that's an easy one, at least... If they haven't primed, they're not done. Similarly, if you haven't primed, you're not done. There's no need to ask unless you're trying to make your opponent hurry up. Personally, if you started asking me if I was done with my turn, there's a good chance I'd be just as passive-aggressive myself and respond by starting three new games and not coming back to yours until they were all complete. Which might take a few days, depending on how they play out.

By the way, if you're just getting bored and impatient with waiting, rather than trying to passive-aggressively throw your opponent off his game, then I've just given you the solution to that: Start another game - or several more games - and keep yourself busy playing a turn at a time in whichever game has one ready. Conversely, if you're asking because you're worried that you might need to hurry up, your friends can do the same while you take all the time you want. FS is specifically designed to avoid requiring you to play only one game at a time, from start to end in one sitting without interruptions.
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icebrain
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby icebrain » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:54 pm

NDervish wrote:FS is basically an asynchronous game

Except that some people want to play it synchronously ! FS is even advertised as a simultaneous turn-based game so…

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wonderhero
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby wonderhero » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:50 pm

When I find this thread I was happy to now there is a possibility to have new "essential" features.
But now, after two months, I don't read what people wants any more. Why ? Because the devs have not made ​​a to-do list with some important features and inform us. This means there is no communication between they and us, or this thread is already dead.
I hope it's about "less communication"!

LSN died because the creator had no time to communicate with the LSN community.
micxiao
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby micxiao » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 am

mentioned before,
but i would also like to be able to
switch between opponent and personal view during dark game replays
instead of it being light all the time for replays
FinalBoss
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby FinalBoss » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:31 am

NDervish, what you said is entirely obvious. Yes, the game is still completely functional as it stands currently, and i understand that single games aren't necessarily designed to be played in one sitting, but my point is that there is no reason whatsoever for the developers to not add three lines of code that give us an indication of whether or not opponents prime. Would it help me out if they did? For me - yes. Would it hurt you if they did? No. It would be a benign update that would only increase communication between players, which would definitely help out irl-friends in particular while not hindering folks like you.

And zarakon, that's the only potential downside that I see, and although I do not really think it's entirely true (no one should be priming before a couple minutes imo), I do have a solution regardless. In order to counter this, you could have the UI only indicate who is prime'd after five minutes or so. Longer moves aren't necessarily more "complicated", and having a five minute "hidden period" would provide an adequate buffer zone.
FinalBoss
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby FinalBoss » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:35 am

Lastly, here's a compromise where everyone wins:

After clicking "prime", have the prime button replaced with something along the lines of a "hurry up" / "I'm done" / "waiting for you" button, and this button can be pressed only once per turn. This should be super easy to implement, and everyone wins.
CrazedZombie
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby CrazedZombie » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:52 am

I wasn't sure if I should post this in essential features, or wishlist. After thinking about it, I decided that these are in my opinion essential.

I think the game needs 2 more commands for the context menu.

EDIT: Command wording edited to be more specific.

[Hold Until Terminated] - Your unit will hold its current position and state and will not process further instructions unless OR until the specified unit (enemy OR friendly) has been, OR is, terminated. This command is issued in the same way as an ignore or focus command.

[Hold Until Engaged] - Your unit will hold its current position and state and will not process further instructions unless OR until the specified unit (enemy OR friendly) is currently in, OR engages in, combat. This command is issued in the same way as an ignore or focus command.

These two commands would open up new, and improve on current tactical controls.

In many situations while playing, I've said to myself, what I'm trying to accomplish would be much improved if I had those commands available.

To me, that is the definition of essential.
Kitsune
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby Kitsune » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:12 pm

CrazedZombie wrote:I wasn't sure if I should post this in essential features, or wishlist. After thinking about it, I decided that these are in my opinion essential.

I think the game needs 2 more commands for the context menu.

EDIT: Command wording edited to be more specific.

[Hold Until Terminated] - Your unit will hold its current position and state and will not process further instructions unless OR until the specified unit (enemy OR friendly) has been, OR is, terminated. This command is issued in the same way as an ignore or focus command.

[Hold Until Engaged] - Your unit will hold its current position and state and will not process further instructions unless OR until the specified unit (enemy OR friendly) is currently in, OR engages in, combat. This command is issued in the same way as an ignore or focus command.

These two commands would open up new, and improve on current tactical controls.

In many situations while playing, I've said to myself, what I'm trying to accomplish would be much improved if I had those commands available.

To me, that is the definition of essential.


I think part of the appeal of the game is that most of the commands are very simple. In universe excuse is that we're dealing with Vatforms, they're not too bright after all. Regarding adding extra commands, I think that's a slippery slope where the developers would then be pressured to add more and more commands until you have situational commands for everything. This would make the game even harder for newbies to get used to and destroy the simplicity they already have at the moment.

Personally, I like the commands the way they are at the moment, but obviously different strokes for different folks will definitely apply here.
CrazedZombie
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby CrazedZombie » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:00 pm

I think part of the appeal of the game is that most of the commands are very simple.

I agree, keeping the controls simple makes the game more accessible for newcomers.

I think that's a slippery slope where the developers would then be pressured to add more and more commands until you have situational commands for everything.

I agree with this point as well, adding command after command to account for every little possibility would be ridiculous.


However, I think the two commands I've come up with are not only simple [Hold Until Terminated] and [Hold Until Engaged], but are a missing necessity.

The need for those actions comes up GAME AFTER GAME, and while you can achieve PART of their functionality with extreme micromanagement during engagements with enemies, having them available as their own commands would remove tedium, speed up planning to achieve the same or even improved effect AND introduce some new tactical possibilities.

If I were just suggesting random commands for the sake of having more commands to play with that would be one thing. However these commands, are in my opinion, a missing piece of the tactical puzzle, and I think after taking a long hard look at what can be done with them most players would agree.

One day you may suddenly find yourself in a tactical situation where you need those commands, so you may want to ask yourself the question...

Is it better to have them and not need them, or to need them and not have them?
rmsgrey
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:41 am

I'd rather have better timing commands - the ability to wait until a particular time in the turn rather than waiting for a set duration after arriving at a given point.

The trouble with wait until X dies/engages from a design perspective is that it makes it too easy to make your plan correct itself on the fly - if your plan is to kill X, then move some of your other units into position, then there's not much difference if it all goes right (aside from being a little fiddlier to do it currently) but if your opponent surprises you, currently there's a chance for a blowout - you lose several units in one fell swoop. If you have your units set to only move out if X does die, then X not dying on cue makes much less of a difference.

The thing is, it's a good thing if it's possible for one player to screw the other over by doing something unexpected - the game is about anticipating and countering your opponent's moves, not about playing out a sure thing...
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lkraider
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby lkraider » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:48 am

You have to optimize for the top players not the newcommers, so trying to make it less micro-managing would remove most of the skill necessary to play the game, therefore hurting more experienced players. It's a turn-based game afterall, take your time and manage things right.
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icebrain
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby icebrain » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:57 am

CrazedZombie wrote:
These two commands would open up new, and improve on current tactical controls.


Those commands are programmable orders based on opponent's action, and this is against what I think the concept of the game is: to guess correctly.

lkraider wrote:You have to optimize for the top players not the newcommers, so trying to make it less micro-managing would remove most of the skill necessary to play the game, therefore hurting more experienced players. It's a turn-based game afterall, take your time and manage things right.

Micro or rather nano-management is more a matter of (wasted) time than of skill.

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sun.tzu
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby sun.tzu » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:54 am

i kinda feel like you should be able to jump over the low covers, especially the windows. seems like the game is lacking in this regard, because you could totally, and easily do this in real life.
TheRaven42
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby TheRaven42 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:06 pm

I'm posting this in essential features instead of Wishlist, because I see it as nearly required for the survival and even growth of the game.

I know most of you have already heard of a game called Starcraft 2. I've seen the devs tweet about it even.

I avoided playing it for a long time because I never liked the 'how fast can you think/click' nature of RTS games. I'm coming to my point here...

Now I want to play SC2, why? I watched some well commentated matches on youtube and even some live cometary at PAX10. Watching and listening to the matches was fun! Even without being a player or knowing the details of the units I was enjoying the swing of battles and crushing defeats. How does this related to FS? FSlive is a great start, watching games played with the comments from one player is fun, but what would be better is, both sides with full ability to show orders, FoV of units, all the switches needed to show both sides of the action right at a commentators finger tips.

The "feature" I'm requesting is to enhance the game so that it is easy to be 'shown off'. Take SC2 as an example and build the tools so we can hide/show orders for both sides, hide/show vision for either sides units, hide units all together. easily show duplicate results.....etc. Make the tools and out of the community your 'announcers' will rise.

"Essentially" make it easy for us to show off your game and express the fun to a audience that might not have even considered it before.
Pellefant
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Re: "Essential" features

Postby Pellefant » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:57 am

The wishlist is for things you would like to see, this thread is for things you would be angry if you don't see.


Not sure if these can be regarded as bugs or feature. But for me appears to be exactly what this thread addresses. I sure as heck get annoyed and at times angry from these issues. Issue #2 and #3 might be regarded as minor flaws or features, but I am more inclined to say they are crucial for game. They relate to the core basis of playing this game it and is not an improvement/feature but really what seems to have been forgotten and perhaps ignored/down-prioritized when making this application. They are issues that reduces some of the joy this game brings, and if frequently encountered completely kills it.


# 1 #

One of the big annoyances is being disconnected from the server. Not that I expect this to be resolved as a multitude of reasons outside your control can cause this. But the consequences can be severe.

After spending 30-45 minutes on setting up a well planned order and the disconnect occurs the entire setup is lost. Which reminds me of the good old days when Word crashed after you had been writing for hours without auto-saving. Not only takes it time to set up the move again (although this of course goes a lot quicker the second time). But it is highly demotivating and sometimes I rather quit for the day rather than to start up doing stuff I already know how to do and what to do. Feels more like work than fun. I would recommend a local autosave where all the moves are stored so if exiting the application in any way, this can be retrieved when that game is loaded.

And there are a few more issues regarding this. Although not as severe, but still easily fixed especially if the autosaving is implemented:
- Autosave when leaving a game so when reentering it all moves are remembered. E.g. I play a game with a dear friend in game #1 and he take a long time. so I start a game #2. But not much later my friend finishes the move and I leave the 2nd game to play a move in the 1st game (playing with a friend is much more fun for me). All my actions are lost in game #2 which is a bit annoying.
- Saving of a setup. Many times I find a good plan, and then after finishing it I realize there is another strategy that might be better. Now sometimes I delete everything, try the second strategy and even delete that and implement my first one. Other times I don't bother as it's to much hassle so I end up submitting a move I'm not perfectly pleased with. A possibility to save a given move had been well (even to file and load from file would work great) so that when after testing out secondary tactics one can go back to the original plan.


# 2 #

My second biggest annoyance with the game is wasting my time on people who do not complete their games.

Many a time I've started a game. spent a long time on either it or simply the first move in the game. And only to end up with a person who has discarded the game. Probably either because they are displeased with the outcome, starting position or simply don't care. I expect many people have addressed this more or less before, but I must persist in reporting this as this is ruining a lot of the fun.

Now it is impossible to ensure people finish their games, I realize this. But something can be done for managing some of these problems.
#1 If a person isn't interested in playing a game that is randomly created - there can be a button/flag/... to toggle before performing the first move. A "round 0". And when both players commit to this game then they have accepted the responsibility of finishing it. This way one can avoid spending a long time on people who discard their set up as being unfair. Now I'm totally for the point system and unfair games can be even more fun - but a lot of people do not share this opinion.
#2 A person not completing a move in a week, 2-3 weeks, month (exact time-limit not so relevant, but anyone in the world ought to be able to perform a move in a month) while the other player has performed his - ought to get an automatic loss.

A statistic like this also could also in the future enable the possibility of matching responsible players with responsible, and the irresponsible with the irresponsible. So that we who take defeat like gentlemen can reduce the exposure of people who do not show the same sportsmanship. E.g. people with a perfect record are allowed to ignore or not matched people who have a completionrating less than 90%.


# 3 #

The rating system.
This is the big carrot for many (at least for me), but there is and always will be problem with cheaters and other issues:

* People not finishing games they are going to loose, and hence avoiding drop in rating and denying the winning player fo this bonus:
Now my #2 mentions the solution for people not completing "lost" games. And hence their rating will drop. Which might be enough to make them finish their games.
Such games seems also to break up any streak of wins a player has achieved, as games in between a long winningstreak will never finish.

Another problem is customized battles which people can exploit to set up what seems like a fair match where they have an advantage and challenge people on it. E.g. was I challenged specifically and when opening up that game I had one person in the middle, surrounded by 5 others. This can easily be solved by not rating customized battles.

Friends forfeiting to make a super player is also a common situation. Now this is harder to address as denying personal challenges will limit the options for people who likes the ranking and also likes playing with specific persons from time to time. I have no recommendation on how to resolve this, but thought I ought the list of obvious exploitation of the system.


Kind regards,
Pellefant

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