high level player help

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stabbyjones
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high level player help

Post by stabbyjones » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:13 am

I seem to be pretty good at keeping close to a 1:1 win/loss ratio but one thing is in my way. Anyone who is high level and turn 1.

I've had the game for probably 8 weeks and am sitting on 6 wins 7 losses. I play semi regularly and I'm currently level 5. When I play a high level player I'm pretty much guaranteed to be immolated by them within 3 turns losing every unit except one by the end of the first turn.

What is a good idea? Run your ass away from starting positions to rely on stealth? I've noticed good players are great at picking when to rush straight at the other units. I tend to fare a lot better when we're on opposite sides instead of hodgepodge around the map

How do you guys survive the first turn?
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icebrain
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Re: high level player help

Post by icebrain » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:36 am

Well if you don't want to lose against high level players, best is to not play against them ! :-D Seriously.
I suggest challenging players higher than you so that your skill progress, but not too high, if you're level 5, try to beat level 10-15, once you can beat them or reach their level, aim higher.
Avoid playing against lower players as you won't learn much, worse, you'll tend to play as bad as them.

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NDervish
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Re: high level player help

Post by NDervish » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:03 am

Unfortunately, level (as currently implemented, at least) is more a reflection of how long you've been playing than it is of skill. As such, I don't think it's a valid criterion for identifying matches which will be "too hard" - I frequently start games where my opponent is level 17-18 (I'm currently 13) and the loading screen declares that I'm "favored" or "highly favored", presumably because, even though I'm lower-level, I have a better win/loss ratio.

Also, unless you're issuing direct challenges to specific players, you can't really make an assessment based on level or w/l ratio before accepting the challenge anyhow. If you set your traffic light to orange/green, you'll play whoever the matchmaker picks for you. If you accept open challenges in the bottom left, looking the player up to check their stats will mean that someone else will accept the game before you've even gotten to their profile (I tried this several times when I first started playing online). If they challenge you, you have no choice but to accept. The only practical ways to avoid playing people way better than you are to either "accept" all challenges and then abort the game by not submitting a first turn (...which is a practice that many on the forum are already decrying as tantamount to cheating) or to only play games where you choose an opponent and challenge them personally.

I have previously proposed a solution to this that would likely work, if the devs can find time to implement it after the server situation is completely squared away: Add an "imbalance" setting to player options, allowing players to select whether they want only balanced matches (the game believes that neither player is favored) or whether they'll also accept matches where one side or the other is slightly favored, favored, or highly favored. But that's just a wishlist item for now and there's no telling whether it will ever make it into the game or not...
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icebrain
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Re: high level player help

Post by icebrain » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:20 pm

NDervish wrote: The only practical ways to avoid playing people way better than you are to either "accept" all challenges and then abort the game by not submitting a first turn (...which is a practice that many on the forum are already decrying as tantamount to cheating)
No, we are free not to submit the first turn because we are not shows who or what we'll play before we accept the challenge - this way is supported by mode7.
What's considered cheating is stopping to play when you start losing.

After you read the Official Manual, check Frozen Synapse's Tactics & Strategy Guide, go further with the Advanced Mechanics for Multiplayer and beat all SP missions with the Campaign Walkthrough • Read the latest News

Kitsune
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Re: high level player help

Post by Kitsune » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:19 pm

icebrain wrote:
NDervish wrote: The only practical ways to avoid playing people way better than you are to either "accept" all challenges and then abort the game by not submitting a first turn (...which is a practice that many on the forum are already decrying as tantamount to cheating)
No, we are free not to submit the first turn because we are not shows who or what we'll play before we accept the challenge - this way is supported by mode7.
What's considered cheating is stopping to play when you start losing.
Agreed in terms of mode and in some map placements. Nothing like losing two units in the first .5 seconds to start the match off right!
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limavictor426
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Re: high level player help

Post by limavictor426 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:32 pm

Sounds like you need to practice a lot more. I agree that rank is more about how long you have played for. I am ranked 12th but dont have a great win/loss ratio. The first round is the most important in this game, just play lots of games, you will soon get more wins, also dont be intimidated by rank.
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
Tigga
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Re: high level player help

Post by Tigga » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:04 pm

I'd suggest making sure you know the combat rules: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1706

Anyway, other than that my tips would be:
1) Sim sim sim. Work out what your opponent can do. What would you do if you were him? What happens to your plan if he does this? Look for worst case realistic (a lot easier on light mode) scenarios and make sure that if his units do what you guess they don't kill you. Try to cover other things he could do as well. If you know where he is you can do a lot of testing to make sure your plan doesn't end up with any of your guys dead, and that there is a chance his guys will end up dead.
2) Learn to distract. This is where you break cover with one unit to draw fire, then move second up to do the killing before hiding the first. Sim it so it works. Especially useful if your opponent's position is known. It can be beaten if your opponent sees it coming and ignores the right guy, but it's rare to see this.
3) (Dark only) Scout. If you don't know where an enemy is and you want to push forward go around corners very carefully - popping out on "continue on sight" then hiding again. You'll see them, they'll see you, but you won't get ambushed.
4) Fire grenades and rockets early in the turn. A grenade/rocket in mid-air in the interturn isn't very useful as they know where it's going to hit and dodge. If this is unavoidable, consider not firing at all. I think both weapons have a reload time of roughly 1 turn, so not firing one turn will let you fire again next turn.
5) (Dark) Intel is key. Put "kinks" in your paths. When moving from A) to B) make extra waypoints along your route to spot enemies. By placing two points nearly on top of each other you can turn to face a direction and carry on going almost instantly with very little movement time lost. Much better than the "check" command, which, IMO, is useless. (tbh, I almost label this as an exploit and I read that in beta check was given a delay just to avoid such things...)
6) (Dark) Intel again - your rockets and grenades can see (obviously!) so make sure they're facing the right direction at the end of the turn. Too often I see rockets and grenades fire, move towards another location, then never turn to see the opponent. They should be kinking (as above) and facing somewhere useful at the end of their movement.
7) Be sneaky. A good opponent will be doing the above so try to do what he doesn't expect. Blow up walls to give your MGs/Snipers behind LoS to new and interesting places. Throw a second projectile right after a rocket to create an unexpected explosion. Put delays into your move orders so you aren't rounding corners when he thinks you will. That sorta stuff.


My win record would be a lot better if I did all these things every game. Sadly... I don't!
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NDervish
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Re: high level player help

Post by NDervish » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:40 am

icebrain wrote:
NDervish wrote: The only practical ways to avoid playing people way better than you are to either "accept" all challenges and then abort the game by not submitting a first turn (...which is a practice that many on the forum are already decrying as tantamount to cheating)
No, we are free not to submit the first turn because we are not shows who or what we'll play before we accept the challenge - this way is supported by mode7.
What's considered cheating is stopping to play when you start losing.
Oh, I definitely agree, but I've seen a few people in other threads referring to it as an "exploit" (and other similar terms) to abort games where you don't have an advantageous squad composition or initial deployment (e.g., if you start with an enemy shotgunner standing next to your RPG/grenadier). They believe this to be unfair because it allows you to avoid losses without penalty, thus inflating your win/loss ratio.
Tigga
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Re: high level player help

Post by Tigga » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:14 am

NDervish wrote: Oh, I definitely agree, but I've seen a few people in other threads referring to it as an "exploit" (and other similar terms) to abort games where you don't have an advantageous squad composition or initial deployment (e.g., if you start with an enemy shotgunner standing next to your RPG/grenadier). They believe this to be unfair because it allows you to avoid losses without penalty, thus inflating your win/loss ratio.
You misunderstand the problem. The problem arises if people only play the games where they have an advantage and turn down neutral games.
rmsgrey
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Re: high level player help

Post by rmsgrey » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:52 pm

Tigga wrote:
NDervish wrote: Oh, I definitely agree, but I've seen a few people in other threads referring to it as an "exploit" (and other similar terms) to abort games where you don't have an advantageous squad composition or initial deployment (e.g., if you start with an enemy shotgunner standing next to your RPG/grenadier). They believe this to be unfair because it allows you to avoid losses without penalty, thus inflating your win/loss ratio.
You misunderstand the problem. The problem arises if people only play the games where they have an advantage and turn down neutral games.
Actually, there are two problems:

1) if everyone declines games where they don't start with an advantage, noone gets to play
2) if some players systematically decline games where they have a disadvantage (initially or developed during play) then their wiin/loss statistics are better than their skill level justifies

The first problem is usually self-correcting to an extent. The second problem is only a problem if you care about the statistics, and is, to some extent, an artifact of what statistics the game presents, and how they're presented - basing scoring on duplicate results rather than on straight match-outcomes would increase the server load, but would massively reduce the incentive to game the system this way.
Tigga
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Re: high level player help

Post by Tigga » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:36 pm

rmsgrey wrote: 1) if everyone declines games where they don't start with an advantage, noone gets to play
This won't happen. The problem is that SOME will decline games where they don't start with an advantage.
rmsgrey
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Re: high level player help

Post by rmsgrey » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:53 pm

Tigga wrote:
rmsgrey wrote: 1) if everyone declines games where they don't start with an advantage, noone gets to play
This won't happen. The problem is that SOME will decline games where they don't start with an advantage.
Then it's the same as the second problem - some players improving their chances by rejecting games where their chance of winning is below a certain threshold, while other players play those games out
Kitsune
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Re: high level player help

Post by Kitsune » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:58 pm

And all ya'll are taking this too seriously.

It's just a number, worse comes to worst, just prove you're better in a tourny.
wonderhero
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Re: high level player help

Post by wonderhero » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:37 am

Adding to Tigga list:
1. The key is "patience and patience" if want to beat these kind of players :wink:
Start playing against impatient experienced players, you will get more courage :) But don't lose your patience!
2. Study your opponent. Take a look at the games played by these players. You can see the orders given to green units (not red). :wink:
3. Counteract distraction. Ignore units that are less potential dangerous: scouts, SG if is far away etc
A stillness unit, seen by enemy, can become a easy target of distraction.
stabbyjones
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Re: high level player help

Post by stabbyjones » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:22 am

Tigga wrote:I'd suggest making sure you know the combat rules: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1706

Anyway, other than that my tips would be:
....
My win record would be a lot better if I did all these things every game. Sadly... I don't!
Great tips! patience isn't my virtue I should be using enemy simulations a lot more often.
I must still be doing obvious things as well I'll try changing things up.

The continue on sight stuff has worked great for me before, better players seem to be quite good at setting up LOS distractions.
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