Rant about explosives

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Sormi
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Rant about explosives

Post by Sormi » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:25 pm

Hello everyone.

Bought this game few days ago and I'm greatly enjoying at the moment. Been playing mainly extermination and I really enjoy all the tactical stuff involved in this game. However I have one problem and it's the explosives. They are good for killing the camper yes, but I think their main objective should be to get the enemy out of cover, rather than blowing half of his squad to pieces in a blink of an eye with little chance to escape assuming you fire it in the beginning of the turn. Every time I nail a good rocket launcher shot I feel bad, cause mainly it's just a matter of luck or ridiculously close calls of millimeters whether it devastates my opponent. It goes other way around too, every time I get hit by a shot I think it was just pure luck, not skill involved whatsoever.

The game mechanics promote tactical usage of cover. To me rocket launcher breaks the best aspects of this game and replaces it with explosion spamfest where you can't hide anywhere nor you can never know where the enemy is shooting. I find it extremely annoying that you can't dodge the explosives if you fire them at the start of the turn. I have become extremely paranoid about rockets in games.

I find grenades are sometimes fun and OK as they don't destroy the map and they have much shorter range. However dual zookas in a matchup are just ridiculous. I'm not saying they are overpowered or anything like don't get me wrong. I just want to know what do you think of roles of explosive units in games.

What are your experiences with explosives? How do you deal with and use them?
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rmsgrey
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by rmsgrey » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:28 pm

Most of the time, I consider rockets to be less useful than other units - their role in eliminating cover potentially enhances the effectiveness of your other units, but they're too easy to neutralise on most maps simply by not standing next to walls to reliably make their own share of kills.

They do reduce the value of tactics suitable for pure-bullet matches, but that doesn't mean they remove, or even reduce, the level of skill in the game - they just change the skills needed.
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icebrain
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by icebrain » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:39 pm

I never liked the RL, I feel it is out of place, you don't go running between buildings exploding walls with rockets, nobody does this.

I wish GL could destroy mid walls and the RL was replaced by a Sapper who plants bombs.

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zarakon
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by zarakon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:57 am

I like grenades, but kind of hate rockets
AnxiousHippo
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by AnxiousHippo » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:56 am

icebrain wrote:I wish GL could destroy mid walls and the RL was replaced by a Sapper who plants bombs.
I agree with the first part completely. I'm not sure about the Sapper though, games normally don't last long enough for such a unit to get much of a chance.
Krenis
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Krenis » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:41 am

icebrain wrote:I wish GL could destroy mid walls and the RL was replaced by a Sapper who plants bombs.
Discovered a little trick by accident the other day; when "crouching" if a rocket launcher aims at a mid wall or mid block it will hit it! Now I stay away from ANYTHING solid with RL's on the map 8)
Hope that helps a little.

*edit: Just saw that you said GL not RL. Doh! That will teach me to read a little more thoroughly :?
Miir
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Miir » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:57 am

I like that fact that rockets and grenades make me nervous. The GL is so unpredictable, and when players don't fire them for a turn or two, and I don't know where they are... it really get my heartpump going. RL on the other hand can change the whole playing field and the game in a single turn, but are much more easy to predict and avoid than GL. In extermination I usually just focus on killing the other units first. If the opposing team only has RL left, it's gg. I agree that more than one RL on a team is to much, and usually makes for boring games. All walls destroyed in a couple of rounds resulting in both teams just standing around and trying to stare each other to death, as mg's and sg's usually dies first.

To summarize, RL and GL can be annoying at times, but certainly makes the game more tense and exciting imo. And it is a necessary tool to prevent player camping, which is vital for my enjoyment of the game.
wonderhero
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by wonderhero » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:19 am

Rocket Launcher bring more luck and force you to change your common tactic.
RL is not for prudent and calculated players who want to emphasize their skill, is rather for surprising and funny element.
Also RL gives beginners some chances to beat impatient advanced players.
On the other hand if Extermination games starts with units in opposite corners and RPG is not present, the game become very boring in my opinion.

Of course I prefer GL instead of RL :)

Would be nice if there where a possibility to choose if RPG will be present or not before creating the game.
Sormi
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Sormi » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:11 am

Well looks like we all pretty much agree that GL is more fun than RL.
I just came up with an idea. GL already negates low cover in sense of lobbing the grenade behind the box. What if rockets wouldn't detonate on low obstacles but still destroyed it when hitting the wall next to it. In this case I would like to see them getting detonated by units too.
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Kitsune
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Kitsune » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Sormi wrote:Hello everyone.

Every time I nail a good rocket launcher shot I feel bad, cause mainly it's just a matter of luck or ridiculously close calls of millimeters whether it devastates my opponent. It goes other way around too, every time I get hit by a shot I think it was just pure luck, not skill involved whatsoever.


What are your experiences with explosives? How do you deal with and use them?
I'm not sure if you've played against some players, but I've seen some people thread a rocket through a map filled with buildings in order to knock off a unit that decided to camp at the spawn point or head towards an obvious rally point. To say that it's just a matter of luck is simplifying it a bit too much in my opinion. I also personally make sure to adjust my strategy around where the rocket is going to fire, so there's the extra benefit of psychological warfare.

To the poster above me, speak for yourself :P
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Cyron
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Cyron » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:50 pm

Sormi wrote:Well looks like we all pretty much agree that GL is more fun than RL.
I just came up with an idea. GL already negates low cover in sense of lobbing the grenade behind the box. What if rockets wouldn't detonate on low obstacles but still destroyed it when hitting the wall next to it. In this case I would like to see them getting detonated by units too.
I quite like the rocket launcher myself. Like the sniper, its main use is often area denial rather than outright kills. Of course, you can get kills with, but in general you'll only get multi kills if fighting against an inexperienced opponents. Against an experienced opponent, they won't group their units and they'll keep them moving, and when getting kills, this often makes it harder to get a kill with the rocket than with your other units. Against said experienced opponent, quite often, the biggest use of the rocket is to open up new attack/movement avenues for your own side.
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icebrain
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by icebrain » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:28 pm

I forgot to mention why I don't like them, it's because they change your dynamic from trying to kill the enemy to having to escape rockets.

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SamW
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by SamW » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:52 am

I think with the planning and testing abilities for everyone the rocket launcher really can't be called luck. The player just has to think, what walls are hit-able to the enemy rockets, test the possible avenues of attack and adjust their plans to avoid rocket splash in any instance. This means, as said in the previous post, the rocket is an area denial tool. Of course if you don't know where the enemy rocket launcher is, then you will have to assume that any of the many walls could explode any moment, but that is part of dark mode, guessing your enemies moves.

Running into a shotgun around the corner means you didn't anticipate the shotgun's position, getting hit by a rocket means you didn't anticipate the rockets target. In both cases it isn't luck, you just failed to see what the other player was thinking. Worse comes to worse, if you think you are exposed to a rocket launcher attack, get your guys away from the walls, it isn't like the rocket can directly hit your guys.

The one thing that makes the rocket launcher different from your array of different classes, is that it can engage units in many different areas at any given time and it's coverage even penetrates walls slightly. Compare this to any other unit whose possible coverage is wherever they can run to and aim at, and yes the rocket launcher can be much harder to predict. But I still wouldn't call it luck, it just requires even more prediction and caution as it can cover and deny many areas at once. If your strategy is to move your guy into a possible rocket launcher target because you hope that the rocket launcher will choose to shoot another area, I think you are playing the game wrong. You never really want to move your units into an area that is being targeted or is a possible target.
wonderhero
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by wonderhero » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:17 pm

[quote]I think with the planning and testing abilities for everyone the rocket launcher really can't be called luck.[quote]
Of course if you know where the enemy RL is and you are a defender.

Sometimes you don't have enough space to hide your units behind the walls for safety and of course you don't want to expose them coming out in the open field.
Sometimes you can't attack without assuming the risk of intersect your units with a rocket's blow. If you want to make a good attack you don't send a unit alone.
These means luck.
So RL bring more luck than the other units, funny and also a new strategy to the game.
The same thing for GL.

If I want 90% tactic I prefer only MGs and Snipers especially in Disputed light mode :)
Frib
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Re: Rant about explosives

Post by Frib » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:34 pm

I disagree with the rocket launchers being luck only. Half of the battle is knowing where your opponent is. Whether it's their rocket launcher or shotgunner doesn't matter, if you don't know where they are or can be, then you're screwed. If you like to corner camp behind cover, then that's fine, but your LOS will be limited and if your opponent uses LOS to its advantage to 'mark' areas as safe then you will have a problem. Especially when there's a grenade launcher or rocket launcher involved, which is especially why I love those units.

If you don't know where the enemy rocket launcher is, then you should've planned better. Even a 1mm wide line of sight through two open windows is enough to know if a unit went somewhere. Use that knowledge to your advantage, and when starting a game try to see as much as possible where enemies are going. If you know that, then you know where rockets can come from (roughly), and you know where it's safe (roughly) and where you should be wary of nearby walls. Also keep in mind that whenever you or your opponent fire rockets, you know exactly where they are, even if you don't see them. And keep in mind YOU have a rocket launcher as well.

Personally I find corner campers more annoying than rockets. In a relatively open dark extermination map with both teams on opposite sides, each with machine gunners and perhaps one shotgunners, it's hell trying to attack because someone standing still, aiming and behind cover will win unless he does not see you first, which is hard to pull off in a corner. The only reliable but still risky way to get rid of them is the bait and switch, if you can do that to one of them at a time. But that requires at least two units, and one mistake or a clever opponent means you lose one or both. Rocket launchers break up that tactic because if you camp somewhere, a rocket will fly your way, forcing you to keep on moving.

Two rocket launchers can be overkill though. While I do love doubleshooting a wall to have the second rocket fly through unexpectedly into the face of opponents, it does mean that there are even less ways to find cover. But even then, there are ways of dealing with them.
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