Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

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Goateh
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Goateh » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:12 pm

In all this talk about a 2 week timeout for games (which I think is fine) it also seems to be suggested that a game in which at least one player takes no turn will disappear and not count as a win or loss for either player. How can that be considered a fair element to keep while abandoning games isn't?

If I can pick and choose what games I play then I can avoid maps that aren't biased towards me or avoid playing with players who I think will beat me. Instead of the current method of leaving an ongoing game the same decision just gets frontloaded to the start of the game instead. The only valid reason for refusing a game is because the map/units have been set up as a completely biased custom game designed to get the challenger free points (e.g. you trapped in a box room, guy with rocket outside to kill you instantly). Setups that have been generated by the game should be mandatory. If not, just abandon random games and give us a full set of options (ie the skirmish screen for every challenge). I know that's what some people have pushed towards already.

The whole point of a random matchmaking system is the random part, why provide a way around it?
Ornithopter
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Ornithopter » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:40 am

Having games not count if a player doesn't take their first turn is necessary, since there's no way to refuse a challenge.
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icebrain
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:21 am

Meneth wrote:Icebrain, you're defeating your own point, as you're showing that a 5% difference makes a tiny difference in actual rank (+/- 1 in the case you mentioned)

Rank 1: Nothing.
Rank 10: +/- 1 rank
Rank 25: +/- 3 ranks
Rank 50: +/- 5 ranks
Rank 100: +/- 10 ranks
This is a huge difference, you just fail to realize it. And it's based on your 5.09, it could be much bigger (x2 or x4) in reality.
The frustration of playing for nothing is also huge. If this issue was minor it wouldn't be addressed, especially not that fast since the emergence of this thread.
vohk wrote:What really worries me is that I think it's just plain too late to reverse the damage. The game has long since lost any new release hype and has been through several sales. These are things that really hurt the game's appeal and for the most part should have been handled a long time ago.
Exactly, I'll quote myself from my feedback thread:
I wrote:I see 3 possible direction FS can take toward final release:
1) Do as initially planned: don’t add new feature, don’t change anything and release final version in late May.
I see 3 inconvenient in this case;
- it’s my opinion that while FS is likely to be a commercial success (many sales) it will in the long run appear disappointing to players, they will stop playing it (rather quickly) and the online community’s presence will not follow the sales’s growth.
- later changes will be unwelcome by a part of the then larger userbase
- later new essential features will come too late to make up for the disappointment.
Most of the 55000 online players are gone and are never coming back. We'll soon reach prerelease values for total players online at one time and number of new players per day. FS is not young, FS is dying prematurely.

Paul wrote:
wonderhero wrote: Also I want to see the orders given to RED units, not only GREEN units, in any finished match. Is it so hard to code ?
When someone raises an issue, it's best not to make assumptions about how easy or difficult it is to implement. "Why don't you just do this? IT'S EASY!" is guaranteed to get your point ignored by most devs! I'll let you off this time though :D
Since both sides can already see both sides' plan when simulating, it's difficult to imagine how it wouldn't be easy to show both sides in the outcome. Additionally, in the exploit that I reported, it's possible to see both sides' plan, sooo the feature is there but not made available, for some reason.
TehShrike wrote:Bitching probably won't get it hear any faster. (If it will, I'll crank up my bitchiness levels with ya!)
Did you see ? Elo and the 2 weeks limit have been neglected for so long and now solely because of this thread they are added in a matter of days. This game was in alpha when it was sold as a beta and was and still is a beta when it was released, that's why we're in our right to demand better.

After you read the Official Manual, check Frozen Synapse's Tactics & Strategy Guide, go further with the Advanced Mechanics for Multiplayer and beat all SP missions with the Campaign Walkthrough • Read the latest News

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NDervish
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by NDervish » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:52 am

Goateh wrote:The whole point of a random matchmaking system is the random part, why provide a way around it?
As Ornithopter said, there's currently no other way of refusing a challenge and there are way too many ways to get challenged (either randomly or directly) to games you just don't want to play, regardless of who may or may not be advantaged - if you're on "green" or if someone directly challenges you, you can end up in game modes that you haven't selected; others in this thread have said that they only want "situation" deployments in Extermination, not "opposite corners"; etc.

Additionally, in a direct challenge, the challenger has information that isn't available to the recipient of the challenge until the map appears, such as the "situation" vs. "opposite corners" deployment I just mentioned.

I agree that the ideal would be for the match to be "real" as soon as the map is generated, with no first-turn exemption from the forfeit rule. However, before that can become the rule, the challenged player must be provided with all information known to the challenger - game mode, deployment style, any "custom game" settings - and be given the option of declining the challenge prior to viewing the map. In the case of games set up by the matchmaker, both players must agree up-front to, at the very least, the game mode for the match.

But, today, we don't have adequate information to decide whether a certain match is desirable or not prior to viewing the map and, even if we did, we don't have a way to decline the match prior to viewing the map. There must, therefore, be a means to decline the match without penalty after seeing it.
TheRaven42
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by TheRaven42 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:17 pm

First: really glad to see more communication here, I know you are small but you might think about hiring a community manager to keep twitter,blog, forums and IRC all in the loop and on the same page.

Second: the ranking system(scoring) is also making me not want to play. I care about my rank and while I'm not in the range where its 5k between ranks, I still feel like to move up I have to just play a lot more games (feels like grinding xp in a mmo), not play with more skill. Playing more games means taking open challenges and a lot of noob bashing. I'd welcome a score reset and ELO based system, ELO with out a reset is pointless with scores starting way back in beta.

I think an option to play 'unranked' games is essential. I've played some games with a friend as a tutorial and lost them specifically to teach a tactic (like distraction), and I would do this more if it would not hurt my score.
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Paul
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Paul » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:51 pm

Thought I would update you on how we're responding to stuff.

ELO is out now - have a look here for details. It looks like ELO will be only on UK1 for the time being - if this causes a massive problem for people then please let me know.

The 2-week time limit is coming imminently, along with the rest of the promised stuff from the first patch.

Ian and I had a meeting yesterday where we spent a long time talking about community issues and how we can try and set up better systems for updating. Currently, updating is WAY harder than it should be, and that's obviously key in making sure that we take care of things that need attention.

We're both trying as hard as we can to work out a way that minor problems and niggles can be eliminated going forward - thanks for your continuing support of the game.

@Icebrain

I'm going to ask you politely to please stop posting obvious trolling alongside valid feedback - it's a waste of everyone's time and it brings down the tone of the discussion. It makes me want to stop reading your posts, but I don't want to miss out on some of your insight, which is very good and constructive. Please just apply a bit of self-regulation to your posting.

Specifically, "this game is still a beta etc." and responding to my point about not spreading irritating conjecture about the difficulty of implementing features by...doing exactly what I've asked people not to do - not helpful.
Paul Kilduff-Taylor

Mode 7 Games
TheRaven42
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by TheRaven42 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:33 pm

my thoughts on the ELO drop in today. I thought it needed a separate thread. ymmv

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3567
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icebrain
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:06 pm

Paul wrote: I'm going to ask you politely to please stop posting obvious trolling alongside valid feedback - it's a waste of everyone's time and it brings down the tone of the discussion.
I can say the same about your earlier posts buddy, where you denied the obvious. I dare point out the problematic, ugly, verifiable truth - instead of answering it, pretend it's trolling and make me leave if that suits you.
If Mode 7 was dedicated to making the best game ever, I would have noticed on day one, or on any of the following days, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Some may think that eggs haven't hatched, I think they hatched a long time ago and I've been counting the chickens. But hey maybe one day pigs will fly !
Void talking to icebrain on IRC on 2011-6-30 wrote: You are starting to make me sad, but, but my mom told me "dont listen to internet peolple"
but if thats true.. argh
if there will be no patch soon... i will really cry

After you read the Official Manual, check Frozen Synapse's Tactics & Strategy Guide, go further with the Advanced Mechanics for Multiplayer and beat all SP missions with the Campaign Walkthrough • Read the latest News

TheRaven42
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by TheRaven42 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:21 pm

@icebrain

I don't have any history here, so maybe you will take this to heart.

Yes this game could have been better at release. Calling it beta or alpha is like calling someones baby ugly, while it may(or may not) be true, it just makes them hate you.

I believe you have a lot of knowledge about the game, and are right about many things, but you come off as hostile and it makes it hard to listen to you.
Ornithopter
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Ornithopter » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:58 pm

@icebrain

Read that last post again. It's dead on.
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icebrain
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by icebrain » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:16 am

If I'm here to be liked (we all seek recognition) it's certainly not as an ass kisser.
First I'm hostile to Mode 7, not to the game, which is a victim just like the players.
Second if I'm hostile there's a reason. The reason is that when I discovered FS I saw its potential as one of the greatest games of all time, but at the same time and everyday since then, I was disappointed by what Mode 7 did with it by choice. Most of those who have realised this decided to leave, I chose to stay and try to improve the game, in vain. And I don't want to hide my frustration.
When I joined I saw the very first beta, so I was able to see all of what Mode 7 did and did not over a whole year.
Reading my feedback will give you a glimpse of this.

I'm unsubscribing permanently from this thread so that I don't take this particular topic further. For anything important, PM me.

After you read the Official Manual, check Frozen Synapse's Tactics & Strategy Guide, go further with the Advanced Mechanics for Multiplayer and beat all SP missions with the Campaign Walkthrough • Read the latest News

wonderhero
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by wonderhero » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:59 am

Icebrain is a victim of this game. He is the most passion player of FS. Any passion leads to frustration especially when the object of passion needs improvements. So his bad tone is not so incomprehensible. Not let his tone to affect you, just try to listen only what he want for this game.

P.S. There is no outside enemy. Your own mind can be your only enemy.
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Paul
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Paul » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm just asking, and I'll continue to ask, that everyone expresses themselves in a reasonable and non-confrontational way on here. People are free to use their own good judgement in deciding what that means - if you have demonstrable failures of good judgement, then I'm less likely to listen to much of what you're saying!

I think what I might do is lock this thread and then start a new "talk to mode 7 about community issues" thread that I'll check regularly. This would be different from both Bugs and Wishlist, which you should still use - it'll be a way to bring my attention to issues that a significant group of the community are worried about that you think we're not dealing with, and another way to get my attention other than Facebook, Twitter, blog comments etc.

I'd like it if in this new thread I'm suggesting, people took the time to think through their submissions a little bit. Don't worry about this too much, but bear in mind that the changes we're likely to make in future will be tweaks - pretty much everything raised in this thread would qualify though, so we'll just see how it goes.

Does that sound like a good idea?

Finally, cheers to everyone for contributing so far.

Currently, our biggest challenge is reconciling how we can give this game sufficient support (which we feel very strongly about) while also maximising where we can take FS and moving on with our other projects. It's a lot to handle and we can only manage with an understanding community like many of you. Let's keep talking and we'll try to get this right.
Paul Kilduff-Taylor

Mode 7 Games
jflatto
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by jflatto » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:05 pm

As a long time lurker, let me add my comments about a variety of issues raised here.

Nowadays, folks are so used to the instant nature of the world in terms of information flow. People watch live news events from around the world and think nothing of it. Thus, too many folks expect instant feedback when they post their comments and suggestions. I certainly understand why Mode 7 went "dark" for a couple of weeks and don't begrudge anyone that time off. As you are discovering, that becomes an issue and you are looking for ways to address this.

As for feedback, one aspect that you probably need to consider is the distribution of players. You have some players who are active on the forums and you are not going to have any problems getting their input (desired or not :D ). You easily may already have a good handle on this but how many players are there who are active with the game, probably broken down into folks who play online and folks playing offline primarily? Of that number, how many are active on the forums? (To be clear, I am not asking for numbers to be shared.) My guess is that you have a silent majority who are not active on the forums. Thus, you may want to consider how to get their input into next steps and what they want.

Not being all that familiar with online play as I "stink" and am trying to get slightly better at playing using the offline skirmish mode, I am wondering if it might be helpful to allow online games to be played "off the ladder" as it might be called. I remember with Laser Squad Nemesis, that there was a group of players who volunteered to play with newbies to help them learn the game. This group would explain what and why they did what they did after the fact so the new players improved. Could this approach be used with FS? Some of the experienced FS players would probably be willing to do this but how could this be set up? Same with the ability to play friendly games wit folks that don't count against the ladder???

Just my $.02.

jpf
Ornithopter
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Re: Mode7 you need to start supporting the game further.

Post by Ornithopter » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:28 pm

jflatto wrote:I remember with Laser Squad Nemesis, that there was a group of players who volunteered to play with newbies to help them learn the game. This group would explain what and why they did what they did after the fact so the new players improved. Could this approach be used with FS? Some of the experienced FS players would probably be willing to do this but how could this be set up?
I'd be willing to do this, though I don't consider myself one of the top players. More knowledgeable players = more fun games for me.
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