2 weeks score list change?

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TheRaven42
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2 weeks score list change?

Post by TheRaven42 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:07 pm

So I'm not complaining that I'm now ranked at 11, but it feels wrong that I'm up there and wonderhero is ranked 234 with a greater than 4:1 ratio?

I never saw the list you posted of games that would count towards the 2 weeks scores... could you repost that?

I'm not saying I see anything wrong, I just don't have any data to back it up, so it feels 'off'.
TheRaven42
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by TheRaven42 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:36 pm

Replying to my own topic based on IRC chat.


Looks like the ELO calcualtion on the "timeout games" was off. and after re-running the ELO calculation based on when the games were played (started?) things look a lot better.
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:50 pm

I compared allRankings.txt from UK1 on the 2011-9-9 at 5:25 UK time (which is different from today's I don't know why) with allRankings.txt from Experimental today at 6:25 UK time.

1 Jefis --> 1
2 WangChong --> 3
3 Ripper. --> 2
4 xa3ox --> 15
5 wonderhero --> 36
6 Raeynn --> 173
7 propast --> 10
8 Bobman --> 79
9 SER_Freeman --> 21
10 Macci --> 20
11 Sneetch --> 5
12 Malfunction --> 6
13 Rakshasa --> 75
14 zGeneral --> 8
15 Diomyr --> 4
16 Mnky --> 29
17 Ackmey --> 13
18 buster --> 22
19 Rotten_Jamppa --> 45
20 siNwrath --> 138

Some players were ranked twice in the file, dunno why (dailies perhaps).

The first question is: what happens after 2 weeks ? what is the rule ?
EDIT ok it's now answered on the blog.

Taking into account the the new number of wins and losses it's difficult to see why the following players were retrograded:
Raeynn 24w 7l
Bobman 9w 1l
Rotten_Jamppa 20w 0l
siNwrath 22w 2l

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Rakshasa
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Rakshasa » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:03 pm

EDIT: n/m, looks like Ian's on top of the doubling issue and Elo / rankings weren't affected by it.
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Rakshasa
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Rakshasa » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:09 am

OK, wait a minute— with 2 week timeout, I got 25 wins, 1 loss and my Elo went down by some 59 points? How does that work?
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Ornithopter
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Ornithopter » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:19 am

Rakshasa wrote:OK, wait a minute— with 2 week timeout, I got 25 wins, 1 loss and my Elo went down by some 59 points? How does that work?
I suspect it's related to timeouts being a 1 point victory.
Samurai004
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Samurai004 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:08 am

Seems like any timeout victory should be a 10 point victory at the very minimum. I might be wrong, but isn't that the minimum amount a victory could be in an normally played game. Making it a 1 point victory is essentially penalizing the winner by at least 9 points.

For example, if I'm REALLY competitive I don't want my opponents to do well in a game OR in ranking. But if I KNOW I am about to lose, rather than giving them the 10 point (minimum victory - could be more) I will only allow them to gain 1 point for a 2 week timeout victory.

The way I think it should work (to be fair to someone dominating a match especially), is that after two weeks, it should end the game as if it were the end of the final turn and points should be awarded the same. If both teams have an equal amount of troops left, then the person last "committed" should win with 10 a point minimum.
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:41 am

Samurai004 wrote: For example, if I'm REALLY competitive I don't want my opponents to do well in a game OR in ranking. But if I KNOW I am about to lose, rather than giving them the 10 point (minimum victory - could be more) I will only allow them to gain 1 point for a 2 week timeout victory.
Right.
I would recommend giving half of the maximum. This way the abandoner is penalized a good amount and the winner is given points balanced between barely win and perfect win (that the server cannot accurately determine).

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Goateh
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Goateh » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:40 am

An abandoned game should give the maximum possible point gain/loss for the mode. If there's a possibility that abandoning will lead to a lesser penalty than just losing the best outcome in some cases becomes abandoning the game rather than continuining to the end. Abandoned games cause frustration and you can also do some fun things like play the bidding modes, bid high and then abandon if it looks like you're going to lose your high bid later on. You win some high bids and the losses are all abandoned for lower point penalties so the risk/reward of a high bid is suddenly skewed. Finishing games can actually lead you to losing more rank than if you ran away.

Playing to the end should be rewarded (or at least not penalised) in all cases, not just in some or in most.
Toeofdoom
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Toeofdoom » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:11 pm

As goateh says, it has to give the maximum possible score the winner could still theoretically get, either based on game mode or based on the current state of the specific game largely because of how this ELO system takes score into account. Plus that's actually the logical way to go about it - you should never get a better result from abandoning a game than by playing to the end. Anyway having them scored as 1 point is another way to ruin the ELO calculations horribly.
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:56 pm

But the server has no way to differentiate an abandon because of likely loss (= forfeit) from an abandon because of a bug, a cheat or a discord.
If it should give the maximum point then it should also provide ways for each side to forfeit, flag as bugged and flag as cheated (technically or morally) - otherwise some players could be mistakenly penalized.

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s.h
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by s.h » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:04 pm

icebrain wrote:But the server has no way to differentiate an abandon because of likely loss (= forfeit) from an abandon because of a bug, a cheat or a discord.
If it should give the maximum point then it should also provide ways for each side to forfeit, flag as bugged and flag as cheated (technically or morally) - otherwise some players could be mistakenly penalized.
And what would happen if i flagged an unbugged game as bugged?
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:20 pm

s.h wrote: And what would happen if i flagged an unbugged game as bugged?
Ideally flagged games should be reviewed (whether it's because of a bug or a cheat).
For bugged games in particular both sides should flag it as bugged for the timeout to be cancelled.

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Toeofdoom
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Toeofdoom » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:50 pm

It should probably do those things no matter what score it gives, so it should still give the maximum possible score. :P

Although flagging for review could be difficult given mode7's limited resources.
Eckie
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Eckie » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:55 pm

I got 39 wins and 1 loss, but don't think it has done anything much for my Elo.

That does seem odd?

(Once again, by a lack of clear information I don't know for sure what it did do to my Elo.)
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