2 weeks score list change?

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s.h
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by s.h » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:06 pm

icebrain wrote:
s.h wrote: And what would happen if i flagged an unbugged game as bugged?
Ideally flagged games should be reviewed (whether it's because of a bug or a cheat).
For bugged games in particular both sides should flag it as bugged for the timeout to be cancelled.
The player that gained benefit from a bug would more likely leave it to himself and not put any flags. Also, not all bugs can be seen by both players. If player1 got his orders mixed up, this could be due to his own mistake, as well as a bug. Fresh players also tend to call bugged lots of things that are not. How is player2 supposed to react to that? And who is going to review all those games marked as cheated? Keep in mind, that in 95% cases this will be a newbie player with straightforward tactics getting mindread easily and frustrated about that. The good old post-on-forums bug tracking system is quite enough, imo. No need to complicate.

And would explain the whole "moral cheating" thing, please? :) Cause the only meaning i can think of is more "husband and wife relationships" than "simultaneous turn-based strategy game" :?
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:46 pm

s.h wrote: The good old post-on-forums bug tracking system is quite enough, imo. No need to complicate.
No because it's not linked to the timeout feature and it's not even guaranteed to be read by Mode 7.
First thing, there shouldn't be bugs. But if there are and there is also a timeout feature then it is required that there is a way to avoid losing because of the presence of a bug.
The flag system is simpler than posting a bug report and making sure it was read etc.
s.h wrote:
And who is going to review all those games marked as cheated?
Toeofdoom wrote:
Although flagging for review could be difficult given mode7's limited resources.
Available resource is Mode 7's problem, not the players'. From the price of the game and the number of copies sold I would say they have enough resource for several persons dedicated to support. If they don't then they should reduce the number of support requests by 1) getting not more customers than they can give support to (by not going on sale etc) and 2) fixing bugs, enhancing the FAQ and adding a knowledge base.
But we're going off topic here.

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s.h
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by s.h » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:12 pm

icebrain wrote: From the price of the game and the number of copies sold I would say they have enough resource for several persons dedicated to support.
Yeah, counting someone else's money is so much fun. Even more fun is thinking where you would spend it. :?
Ornithopter
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Ornithopter » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:03 pm

icebrain wrote:First thing, there shouldn't be bugs.
Oh, well why didn't you say it was that easy! I'm sure every software company in the world will be willing to pay you thousands of dollars each to come talk to their employees about your revolutionary "bugs are bad" theory. And then there will be no more bugs. We should have thought of this years ago.
icebrain wrote:Available resource is Mode 7's problem, not the players'.
Right, and here's what they did: they didn't hire a bunch of people to look through everyone's replays to see if the players screaming "OMG HAXORZ" are telling the truth. Problem solved! Now they have resources available for other things! Like bug fixes! And listening to us complain!
icebrain wrote:From the price of the game and the number of copies sold I would say they have enough resource for several persons dedicated to support.
I notice your calculations don't include the cost of an office or servers. Or, y'know, food. Mode 7 already has all the money out of current FS players that they're going to get, so if they want more money, whether to to run your game-review service or pay their mortgages or buy their children birthday presents, they have to sell more copies of the game. And when they spend that money, they don't have it anymore, so they have to sell even more copies of the game. Over time, the sales of the game will decline, until they have to make a new game. That takes a lot of time, and customers aren't going to be giving them any money for the new game until it's finished and for sale, so they need to have enough FS money left over to not starve to death until the new game is finished.
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:12 pm

Ornithopter wrote: Oh, well why didn't you say it was that easy! I'm sure every software company in the world will be willing to pay you thousands of dollars each to come talk to their employees about your revolutionary "bugs are bad" theory. And then there will be no more bugs. We should have thought of this years ago.
Exactly, just like Seth Godin is paid for his speeches.
No bugs means bugs should be fixed and Mode 7 has not made this its priority. There have been year old bugs, bugs that couldn't be fixed and led to feature removal. We can see in the current state that ironing out is not complete.
Ornithopter wrote: Problem solved! Now they have resources available for other things! Like bug fixes! And listening to us complain!
It's the other way around: they fix bugs --> problem solved no need to review games flagged as bugged --> more resource for all other aspects of the game.

Ornithopter wrote: I notice your calculations don't include the cost of an office or servers. Or, y'know, food.
Wrong, they were able to pay for that before the release. Now they have extra money.
Ornithopter wrote: That takes a lot of time, and customers aren't going to be giving them any money for the new game until it's finished and for sale,
Wrong, they started selling a "beta" version (at full price) one year before final release.

When technical support is needed it should be given and it's to the company to manage its resource to be able to do so.
on the blog Paul wrote: A Quick Update - Thursday, June 9th, 2011
Commercially, the game has lived up to our expectations, and then some – we’ve made enough to keep working on the things we want to work on: we’re doing well enough to make sure FS hits its full potential and then start up the next game.

I think there’s a bit of an assumption that if an indie game has a good launch that the money-hats immediately are donned and that everything is, in some way, completed: that’s only true if you’re Notch! This is really just the beginning of the journey for FS in my eyes.

The future of Mode 7 as a “real company” has been cemented: this is the right path and now the goal is to stay on it, making sure we do justice to our community.
P.S. again this is off topic.

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Rakshasa
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Rakshasa » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:01 pm

Um, can we start talking about timeout games and score changes again? I think that timeout games should count for the max allowable score, and I think that bugged games that time out can be handled through the forums, like any other bugged game.

I think that speculating how well Mode 7 might handle such things is best left to another thread.
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Samurai004
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Samurai004 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:29 pm

Toeofdoom wrote:As goateh says, it has to give the maximum possible score the winner could still theoretically get
After thinking this through, I believe this is more correct than my statement of giving a score based on what it would be if that turn was scored as the last turn of the match. Here is why I changed my mind:

If you had 3 troops left and all three were milliseconds from being hit with shots when the last turn ended, then the other (victorious) player should not get scored as if they were still alive. Otherwise, it would be statistically stupid to continue to the next turn, cause you would be helping your opponent achieve a higher score.

Basically, allowing a 2 week timeout should simulate all the delaying player's remaining troops dying and then score.
Ornithopter
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by Ornithopter » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:57 pm

Rakshasa wrote:Um, can we start talking about timeout games and score changes again? [...] I think that speculating how well Mode 7 might handle such things is best left to another thread.
Sorry.
wonderhero
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by wonderhero » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:27 am

I was very surprised to see 4 unfinished games by me. I remember I played all my turns in any game, except one bugged game, but dev told me that this one will not count.
I suppose my opponents took their turn when I was in holidays a couple of days and I when came back the mark "new" disappeared for each of those games and they was mixed with the other unfinished games by my opponents. So in this case I didn't know witch game required my turn.
If is so I hope will not happen again.
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icebrain
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Re: 2 weeks score list change?

Post by icebrain » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:58 pm

By the way, apparently the 2 weeks timeout gives 1 score pt to the winner and -max score pt to the loser.

Their rating pt could be (for Secure):

winner: 1400 -5.05
loser 1200 -7.69

winner: 1200 +11.58
loser 1400 -24.31

winner: 1200 +3.26
loser 1200 -16

After you read the Official Manual, check Frozen Synapse's Tactics & Strategy Guide, go further with the Advanced Mechanics for Multiplayer and beat all SP missions with the Campaign Walkthrough • Read the latest News

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