New ideas and improvements for FS.

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sebsauvage
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New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by sebsauvage » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:22 pm

Hello dear FS community and developers.

I have been playing for a few weeks, and I humbly present a few suggestions which - I think - may improve FS.
This is a bit long, but please take time to read it.
  • The "new turn" notification popup (from another match) should not be modal and should not be centered on screen: It interrupts thinking on current turn.
  • We have large screens nowdays. It's such a shame the GUI does not scale to fill the screen. We have to scroll a lot.
  • When exporting a match to OGV, the video should not show cursor and chat popups.
  • On replay (or video export), please allow slow motion ! (speed/2 or speed/4). That would be great.
  • I truely regret that FS uses its own protocol over TCP instead of HTTP. This prevents playing from a number of networks which only allow HTTP out. I don't know the internals of FS, but I as a developer I guess that the amount of data to transfer is rather small. How about using HTTP ? (and don't forget proxies... and proxies with login/password). This would allow more player to join.
  • In the frozen synapse feed, the list of results would be more readable presented in a grid such as this one (colors are awfull, sorry, this is only a mockup): Image
  • I know there is a wiki and that experience comes with time, but the tutorial would really deserve rework. Lot of concepts are not explained (cover, importance of distance to cover, etc.)
  • The button to look for a match (lower-left corner) should display its state in text too (Idle / Accept games / Look for games). Or a last the state should be displayed when hovering.
  • Global ranking : How about showing up/down arrows to show players who are progressing ?
  • Global ranking: How about showing a small graph of player progress (like sparkcodes) on each player ?
  • How about allowing players to upload a small (16x16 or 32x32) icon as avatar. This would be more easy to spot players in list (online players, ranking...)
  • How about allowing a compact and local storage of matches ? I like to record my matches and watch them offline, but the OGV format takes a lot of place. By storing only movements and a few metadata, this would probably take only a few kilobytes. The files should be viewable offline.
  • LAN play would be nice (with a single licence). Why ? This is a good way to : 1) let friends discover and taste the game together. 2) show them how to play (the tutorial is a bit rough and initial difficulty of the game may put off some people. Guided, this would be easier for them to enter the mindset of the game).
  • The only game we can play against the AI is "Extermination". Why not allow other game types ? That would be great to train before going online. (I guess it's more complicated for AI programming.)
  • I would love a web-based games browser (history, "all games" and "my games"), etc. You could add a few figures to show player progress.
  • Idea: Add frozensynapse:// protocol support. This would allow people to exchange links to specific games and replays (click--> immediately see the game in FS.)
Last question: The day you go bankrupt (I hope this never happens !), will you release the source code ? I especially think of the server. Without this, the multiplayer game would be dead, which would be a shame, really. Please start thinking about it, I think thousands of players would be sad to see multiplayer game go the way of the dodo. This game deserves to live a long life.

Signed: A happy player who blogged about this on his website (15200 visitors/day... and I really hope this brought some sales in !)
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:55 pm

sebsauvage wrote: Signed: A happy player who blogged about this on his website (15200 visitors/day... and I really hope this brought some sales in !)
Salut Seb ;-) bienvenue

If you posted this and reviewed the game it means that you're very enthusiast. But I'm afraid that you came too late for those ideas and improvements to have any impact. I myself came too late and that was even before the final release (I invite you to read the improvements and ideas I suggested). I doubt there ever was (or will be) a time when we are listened to.

P.S. I saw that you linked to my site in your link page. I'd appreciate if you could link again (for example to the guide) in your review.

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by sebsauvage » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:08 pm

Too late ? Well I hope the devs are still listening and that they will continue to improve the game and release upgrades. :-|


PS: Done :wink:
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:54 am

So, Icebrain, now, not only do think the player base is shrinking, but you're actively trying to make it smaller!?!

Are you serious?!

@sebsauvage: ignore icebrain - he has a chip on shoulder for some reason (and, this is only my pet theory, but I suspect that he's bitter that his 'guide' isn't selling in the numbers he hoped for).

Yes, we don't get vast amounts of feedback from mode7 on every little point. But they have stated, in these very forums, and in IRC, that they are paying attention to what people want, and working on implementing changes.

They, apparently, have just taken on (or maybe are about to take on) another member of staff, who, as I understand it (again from what has been stated by mode7 on these very forums), will initially be implementing an auto-updater.

Once that's done, I would expect, but here I am speculating, that we will start to see more frequent updates addressing some bugs that need fixing, and then, or possibly also, some updates implmenting some of the many requested features (which already include some of, if not most, or all, of your suggestions).

If, like me, you think Frozen Synapse is a great game, and mode7 deserves our support, then, like me, I'm sure you'll be keen to spread a positive message about how great Frozen Synapse (whilst acknowedgeing the negatives), instead of trying to kill the game even faster, like some seem want to do.

EDIT: Oh, also, there are a couple of threads already for posting suggestions/etc in (of differing levels of importance):

Wishlist Thread - for suggestions such as those you posted above.
Mode7 Hotline Thread - for things that need Mode7's urgent attention.

and a whole sub-forum for bugs:

Bugs Forum

and tech support:

Technical Support Forum
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:21 am

Scorpion0x17 wrote:So, Icebrain, now, not only do think the player base is shrinking, but you're actively trying to make it smaller!?!
haha I expected that. If in the light of truth it shall shrink then so be it. But I'm just warning him so he doesn't get false expectations.
By the way, just like FS gets tons of sales from Steam, my guide would get a lot more sales if Mode 7 promoted it (or any community stuff) or if 60000 didn't just give up playing this game.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: If, like me, you think Frozen Synapse is a great game, and mode7 deserves our support, then, like me, I'm sure you'll be keen to spread a positive message about how great Frozen Synapse (whilst acknowedgeing the negatives), instead of trying to kill the game even faster, like some seem want to do.
EDIT 2011-12-11: FS is not a great game, it has the potential to be, but Mode 7 has never exploited it and this is what has been killing it and I want this fact to be known because a myth is spread by Mode 7 and its ass kissers that FS is a success in all aspects.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:EDIT: Oh, also, there are a couple of threads already for posting suggestions/etc in (of differing levels of importance):
Presented on the support section of my site.

------------------------------------------------

sebsauvage you can ignore Scorpion0x17, he's still a newbie, yet he made it his duty to answer every new thread, and I guess he doesn't want his dream of FS to be shattered.
I've been here a for a long time, I've played the very first beta, I saw what was said and done. Read this to get an idea.
Of course you don't have to believe me. Come back in lets say 3 months and ponder if your expectations were met or not.
Last edited by icebrain on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:16 am

icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:So, Icebrain, now, not only do think the player base is shrinking, but you're actively trying to make it smaller!?!
haha I expected that. If in the light of truth it shall shrink then so be it. But I'm just warning him so he doesn't get false expectations.
Not truth, icebrain, supposition.

And, pray tell, why is it that the devs don't frequent forums?

Could it be something to do with your attitude, perchance?

And before you answer that, ask yourself, do you really want me to go find the post that I know exists in these very forums, from one of the devs, regarding your apparent attitude of entitlement?
icebrain wrote:By the way, just like FS gets tons of sales from Steam, my guide would get a lot more sales if Mode 7 promoted it (or any community stuff) or if 60000 didn't just give up playing this game.
And why should they? Did you not chose to write it off your own back?
icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:EDIT: Oh, also, there are a couple of threads already for posting suggestions/etc in (of differing levels of importance):
Presented on the support section of my site.
So?
icebrain wrote:------------------------------------------------

sebsauvage you can ignore Scorpion0x17, he's still a newbie, yet he made it his duty to answer every new thread, and I guess he doesn't want his dream of FS to be shattered.
I've been here a for a long time, I've played the very first beta, I saw what was said and done. Read this to get an idea.
Of course you don't have to believe me. Come back in lets say 3 months and ponder if your expectations were met or not.
What has my being relatively new to the game, and what has your being here for long time got to do with anything?

You think that entitles you to something?

It entitles you to diddly squat!

And, I did not 'make it my duty' to do anything. In fact, I can tell you for a fact that I have not replied to every new thread. I am, however, an engaged, active, positive, and I hope helpful member of the Frozen Synapse community.

Do I expect anything in return for that?

No!

I simply do it because I like, and wish to support, the game.
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:02 am

Scorpion0x17 wrote: Not truth, icebrain, supposition.

And, pray tell, why is it that the devs don't frequent forums?

Could it be something to do with your attitude, perchance?

And before you answer that, ask yourself, do you really want me to go find the post that I know exists in these very forums, from one of the devs, regarding your apparent attitude of entitlement?
I have the data, you don't, so you're the one making supposition.

There certainly are several reasons why they don't frequent the forums, and me pointing out their continuous breaches is certainly one, but even before I joined (as I showed in the 2 weeks post with post counts) or when for a full month I didn't criticize them (and they were aware of this) they didn't frequent it much more.

There's nothing that I wrote on this forum that I'm ashamed of. Go get that post that you know exist if you want. People will see that if that particular thread hadn't created and I didn't make my voice heard, we probably wouldn't have had Elo and the timeout feature that "soon".
Scorpion0x17 wrote: And why should they? Did you not chose to write it off your own back?
Already explained in the "2 weeks" thread.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: What has my being relatively new to the game, and what has your being here for long time got to do with anything?

You think that entitles you to something?
What a foolish argument to try to reduce my contribution to the length of my membership. You're in denial of my work. I didn't just sit there for 10 months.

By the way, you can see from my post history that it was only 1 month and 3 weeks after I registered that I opened my mouth to say something worthy.

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:56 am

icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: Not truth, icebrain, supposition.

And, pray tell, why is it that the devs don't frequent forums?

Could it be something to do with your attitude, perchance?

And before you answer that, ask yourself, do you really want me to go find the post that I know exists in these very forums, from one of the devs, regarding your apparent attitude of entitlement?
I have the data, you don't, so you're the one making supposition.

There certainly are several reasons why they don't frequent the forums, and me pointing out their continuous breaches is certainly one, but even before I joined (as I showed in the 2 weeks post with post counts) or when for a full month I didn't criticize them (and they were aware of this) they didn't frequent it much more.

There's nothing that I wrote on this forum that I'm ashamed of. Go get that post that you know exist if you want. People will see that if that particular thread hadn't created and I didn't make my voice heard, we probably wouldn't have had Elo and the timeout feature that "soon".
Scorpion0x17 wrote: And why should they? Did you not chose to write it off your own back?
Already explained in the "2 weeks" thread.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: What has my being relatively new to the game, and what has your being here for long time got to do with anything?

You think that entitles you to something?
What a foolish argument to try to reduce my contribution to the length of my membership. You're in denial of my work. I didn't just sit there for 10 months.

By the way, you can see from my post history that it was only 1 month and 3 weeks after I registered that I opened my mouth to say something worthy.
My God, you really just don't get it do you?!

"continuous breaches", "my contribution", "you're in denial of my work", "worthy"!!!!

ARGH!

Let me guess, you're an only child, that was spoilt rotten by his family, and who always got whatever he demanded?

'Cos that's how you're behaving!

Well, welcome to the real world, a world where you are not the center of the universe, a world where contributing doesn't automatically entitle you to a damn thing!

EDIT: Actually, tell you what, here you go, here's a prize just for you:

Image
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:36 am

Scorpion0x17 wrote: My God, you really just don't get it do you?!

Well, welcome to the real world, a world where you are not the center of the universe, a world where contributing doesn't automatically entitle you to a damn thing!
It's you who don't get it. The world is what you make it to be. It's not because some do this good or that bad that it's the rule or the fatality. You chose to see the world your way, but don't you come tell me how I should see it.

Facts are that 1) the work I've done here is exceptional for a single person and for a such small game 2) ≈95% of the customers gave up playing this game (within 2 weeks).

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:55 am

icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: My God, you really just don't get it do you?!

Well, welcome to the real world, a world where you are not the center of the universe, a world where contributing doesn't automatically entitle you to a damn thing!
It's you who don't get it. The world is what you make it to be. It's not because some do this good or that bad that it's the rule or the fatality. You chose to see the world your way, but don't you come tell me how I should see it.

Facts are that 1) the work I've done here is exceptional for a single person and for a such small game 2) ≈95% of the customers gave up playing this game (within 2 weeks).
1) a) Commendable, yes, exceptional, no, and b) so what?
2) a) prove it, and b) so what?
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:09 am

By the way, wasn't it you who asked why there was no link to the wiki, on mode7games.com ? your reasoning is flawed.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 1) a) Commendable, yes, exceptional, no, and b) so what?
2) a) prove it, and b) so what?
1) a) find me equivalents
2) a) you already made your opinion so any proof would be useless, but I plan on releasing my stats this weekend
b) what so what ? you argue for the sake of arguing and don't even realise the points being made, quit wasting my and the readers time

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:52 am

icebrain wrote:By the way, wasn't it you who asked why there was no link to the wiki, on mode7games.com ? your reasoning is flawed.
My reasoning is flawed?!

I'm not the one that equates a question with a demand!

I ask the question "why isn't there a link to the wiki on the mode 7 website?", yes.
Have you seen me demanding that mode 7 put one there? no.

Do you not see the difference between asking and demanding?
icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 1) a) Commendable, yes, exceptional, no, and b) so what?
2) a) prove it, and b) so what?
1) a) find me equivalents
2) a) you already made your opinion so any proof would be useless, but I plan on releasing my stats this weekend
b) what so what ? you argue for the sake of arguing and don't even realise the points being made, quit wasting my and the readers time
1) People make fan-guides all the time. For all sorts of things. They generally do it for the love. And don't demand anything in return.

2) So post your stats. But, by the way, if you want them to be taken seriously they better be verifyable, and you'd better quote your sources.

b) what points? all hear from you is "I want, I want, I want".
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:55 am

Scorpion0x17 wrote: My reasoning is flawed?!
Yeah, you think that Mode 7 should promote the wiki (otherwise you wouldn't ask) yet you don't think that they should promote my work - that's what you keep repeating over and over.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 1) People make fan-guides all the time. For all sorts of things. They generally do it for the love. And don't demand anything in return.
Do they go to the extent of learning how to use a layout processing software ? how to make a cover ? Oh wait, you don't even KNOW what my guide is like. Do they also build a fan site from scratch ? Do they spend a month redesigning the game's UI ? do they write feedback longer than any review ? Do they dedicate 9 months to do this and more ?
I dooooon't thinnnnk soooooo.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 2) So post your stats. But, by the way, if you want them to be taken seriously they better be verifyable, and you'd better quote your sources.
haha, what a joke. They are going to be verifiable only by those who recorded the same data, daily, since release. I bet I'm the only one who did and it's not even sure that Mode 7 did (they wouldn't show it anyway).
Edit: Frozen Synapse statistics, number of players and more.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: b) what points? all hear from you is "I want, I want, I want".
Looks like you still haven't read my feedback thread.
Stop wasting my time and turning threads into "deserve / don't deserve" debates.
Last edited by icebrain on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by Scorpion0x17 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:56 pm

icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: My reasoning is flawed?!
Yeah, you think that Mode 7 should promote the wiki (otherwise you wouldn't ask) yet you don't think that they should promote my work - that's what you keep repeating over and over.
No, I said that you have no right to expect mode7 to promote your work. Big difference.
icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 1) People make fan-guides all the time. For all sorts of things. They generally do it for the love. And don't demand anything in return.
Do they go to the extent of learning how to use a layout processing software ? how to make a cover ? Oh wait, you don't even KNOW what my guide is like. Do they also build a fan site from scratch ? Do they spend a month redesigning the game's UI ? do they write feedback longer than any review ? Do they dedicate 9 months to do this and more ?
I dooooon't thinnnnk soooooo.
So, I was right. This is what's it's all about, you put a load of work into something, of your own accord, and without being asked, and now you're all bitter, because you haven't received the attention you think you deserve!?

And, you know what, yes, other fans do all those things (or things like that), for the things they love, and, you know what, they don't moan and complain when they get no attention.

Mode 7 don't owe you anything! And, quite frankly, you should think yourself lucky that Mode 7 aren't (apparently) of a litigous nature (or if they are that they can't afford to waste money on people like you), because, quite frankly, other companies would have slapped a cease-and-decist order on your ass the moment you started charging for something that's riding on their success and exists because of their IP!
icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: 2) So post your stats. But, by the way, if you want them to be taken seriously they better be verifyable, and you'd better quote your sources.
haha, what a joke. They are going to be verifiable only by those who recorded the same data, daily, since release. I bet I'm the only one who did and it's not even sure that Mode 7 did (they wouldn't show it anyway).
Unverifiable data is as good as meaningless - because you could have massaged the data to fit your biased world-view.
icebrain wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote: b) what points? all hear from you is "I want, I want, I want".
Looks like you still haven't read my feedback thread.
Stop wasting my time and turning threads into "deserve / don't deserve" debates.
Stop whining like a spoilt child then.
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Re: New ideas and improvements for FS.

Post by icebrain » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:13 pm

Scorpion0x17 wrote: No, I said that you have no right to expect mode7 to promote your work. Big difference.
No difference.
EDIT 2011-12-16: When you asked why there was no link to the wiki you did exactly that: you expected Mode 7 to promote it, so again your reasoning is flawed.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: So, I was right. This is what's it's all about, you put a load of work into something, of your own accord, and without being asked, and now you're all bitter, because you haven't received the attention you think you deserve!?
That's what YOU make it all about to be. In this thread and in the "2 weeks" thread you transformed the "Mode 7 is not improving the game" complaint that others and I signalled, into "icebrain whines about Mode 7 not promoting his work". Shame on you for doing this.
I defy you to find a post where I complain about Mode 7 not promoting my work - at best I have mentioned the fact that they don't promote any community effort, to make my point. The only thing I've been openly and largely complaining about (with others) is Mode 7 not improving the game.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: And, you know what, yes, other fans do all those things (or things like that), for the things they love, and, you know what, they don't moan and complain when they get no attention.
Maybe they don't moan and complain because they do get what they deserve in return. Or maybe they don't get anything and don't complain, but they think no less, so you don't HEAR them - big difference. Oh and of course it's proportional to the contribution, I'm still waiting for you to show me equivalents.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: Mode 7 don't owe you anything! And, quite frankly, you should think yourself lucky that Mode 7 aren't (apparently) of a litigous nature (or if they are that they can't afford to waste money on people like you), because, quite frankly, other companies would have slapped a cease-and-decist order on your ass the moment you started charging for something that's riding on their success and exists because of their IP!
Other companies of litigious nature, surely. Writing a game guide is not "riding on success", especially if it came from a community member. Selling Eiffel tower keychains below the Eiffel tower, this is riding on success. Selling T-shirts with the FS logo, this is riding on success. I would have no "right" to do it because I would be using Mode 7's IP for it's very value. If I create something on my own, it's different, and if it has no equivalent, and if in addition it serves the community, very stupid and rotten would be the company to block it. Fact is that Mode 7 reviewed the guide, Paul explained me Mode 7's position on such product and in the end it's an authorized game guide.

Scorpion0x17 wrote: Unverifiable data is as good as meaningless - because you could have massaged the data to fit your biased world-view.
Meaningless ? biased ? Whaaaaat a bunch of crap. When was the last time you verified any statistic ? That's right, you never did, you arbitrarily decided to trust it or not.
In your world view I resort to any mean to make my point, in reality my points are strong enough that I don't need to make anything up.
Scorpion0x17 wrote: Stop whining like a spoilt child then.
Go fuck yourself then. And don't cross my world view again.
Last edited by icebrain on Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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