Proposal for dealing with stacking

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Omroth
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Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Omroth » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:48 pm

I propose that if a unit is "almost on top of" another friendly unit, he receive a half second aiming-time penalty. What says you?
Joschasa
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Joschasa » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:57 pm

Would prefer some kind of collision detection to prevent stacking instead of cure the symtoms.
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Omroth
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Omroth » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:10 pm

Collision detection would specifically break the game - your plans would very often be disrupted in a bad way.
Majic
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Majic » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:09 pm

The issue isn't that they are stacked, it's that you can't give your units contextual orders, to ignore and focus, the individual enemy units in the stack.*

You can 'select' an enemy unit to give it move orders but you can't 'highlight' [hover your mouse over] a unit in the middle or the bottom of a stack to use focus or ignore commands against it.

With a perfect stack you can't highlight a unit in the middle or the bottom of the stack.

An ideal non-game mechanic changing solution would be to better improve planning layers,

How?

I want to be able to select which units I can see on a planning layer.

So if need be I can have a sole enemy shotty on one layer or, if I wanted to, have all 3 mgs and no shotty on another planning layer.

This way, if there are say 3 mgs in a perfect stack, I can devote an mg to it's own planning layer simply by removing [via check box?] the other 2 mgs from that layers view.

This should also help with the problem you'll have with highlighting units in the ipad version [no hover on a touch screen].

*For those unfamiliar with 'perfect stacking':

You have 3 units on the board.
Hit 1 on your keyboard to select unit 1.
Then click behind cover.
Do not move your mouse.
Hit 2 on your keyboard to select unit 2
Without moving your mouse click again in the exact same spot.
Repeat for the 3rd unit.

Now you have a perfect stack with 2 units the opposition can't fight against.
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Jefis
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Jefis » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:28 pm

I agree with Majic. The problem what I see is indeed the ignore/focusing on the units.

My proposal:
Atm only ghosts can be moved around map. Make it so that you can also move the actual units (visible units). This is would be usefull otherwise too. The problem is to get them back to the exact location. For that there should be a reset button, which also is missing atm and you can't put the ghosts back unless you close the game and load it up again. A bit annoying thing...
But the point was that once a stacked unit is moved they are easily targetable and easy to put back.

To make clear which unit has been moved could be marked somehow, say a change of color...
Majic
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Majic » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:20 pm

Jefis wrote:I agree with Majic. The problem what I see is indeed the ignore/focusing on the units.

My proposal:
Atm only ghosts can be moved around map. Make it so that you can also move the actual units (visible units). This is would be usefull otherwise too. The problem is to get them back to the exact location. For that there should be a reset button, which also is missing atm and you can't put the ghosts back unless you close the game and load it up again. A bit annoying thing...
But the point was that once a stacked unit is moved they are easily targetable and easy to put back.

To make clear which unit has been moved could be marked somehow, say a change of color...
Ah that's a better idea then mine.
Maybe to mark a moved unit just turn it into a ghost?
Reset button is a good idea too.
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wonderhero
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by wonderhero » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:29 pm

There are two issues with stacking units. One is mentioned by Majic and Jefis and I agree with them.

The second issue is mentioned by Omroth and is a big one: if 2-3 PERFECT stacked MGs are placed in a safety position will be invincible against 2,3 opponent MGs. Especially Secure mode is effected. I explained why in other threads.
If they are not perfect stacked then they can be beaten by the enemy units at a close range, not high range.
So yes. I would agree with Omroth: if a unit is PERFECT on top of another friendly unit, he receive a half second aiming-time penalty only if both of them are stillness.
Why stillness ? Because now, 2 almost stacked MGs that are moving with aiming, can beat a enemy stillness SG, with a unit sacrifice. If one of MGs would have a penalty then they will never win against SG. This would make the SG more powerful than he is and I think we don't want this.
The bad for this 0.5 sec penalty is that would be a little confused for a player to find out witch unit is on top and will suffer this penalty. More, he must find out if the units are perfect stacked.

Another way is to automatic separate these units with at least 1 pixel if the player try to make them perfect stacking. So perfect stacked units will never happen. What you say ?
IAMNIETZSCHE
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by IAMNIETZSCHE » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:14 am

wonderhero: me no understand. As far as I knew the only issue is with focus/ignore. link me to the thread please? Also, are you accepting challenges? I'm back online but not when everyone else is. I got reprimanded at work for chatting in IRC :P

Omroth: just allow me to focus/ignore units until I understand what wonderhero is talking about. I liked Jefis' idea.
wonderhero
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by wonderhero » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:36 am

IAMNIETZSCHE wrote:wonderhero: me no understand. As far as I knew the only issue is with focus/ignore. link me to the thread please?
For sample: Secure map, MGs vs MGs. I have a great chance to find a (safety) position where my opponent can't flank me or use a cover bonus against my units. If I win the bid, in this position I can easy perfect stack (blend) my all MGs. Than I give for each MG set focus on one different enemy MG. So my opponent can't use distraction. In this way I just wait and win, no other order.
The same thing for any symmetrical direct fire teams on a Secure/Extermination game.
If players consider that this is just tactic then I will agree with them. Till then I consider this as an exploit.
Also, are you accepting challenges?
I accept challenges from any player, any mode, dark or light, only if is not too imbalanced. So feel free to challenge me and if you don't like the map, challenge me again and again. Pls PM and tel me which map you accepted.
Majic
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Majic » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:31 pm

Ah I see what you mean wonderhero.

My main fear is that adding a new artificial time penalty will confuse new players and maybe break something unforeseen elsewhere [open up new exploits].

I do think jefis' idea about moving non ghost units and a reset button would be brilliant addition too.
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Omroth
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Omroth » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:19 pm

Would being able to drag non-ghost units completely fix this problem?
wonderhero
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by wonderhero » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:03 pm

Omroth wrote:Would being able to drag non-ghost units completely fix this problem?
Almost, but please, please do something to not interfere with drawing zones!!! Now if I want to draw a zone, the near ghost will be dragged in the same time without my will.
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Omroth
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by Omroth » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:14 pm

Ok!
IAMNIETZSCHE
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by IAMNIETZSCHE » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:43 pm

wonderhero: To me that just sounds like a win based on a better bid or possibly a broken map. Barring the focus/ignore problem, slightly separated units do the same thing. I'll send you a challenge later. Nothing better to shake off the rust then taking on the current number one!

Omroth: Yes, but the ability to reset to the standard game state is important. At the moment if you move a ghost you have to reload the game to get him back to his exact last seen position.
wonderhero
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Re: Proposal for dealing with stacking

Post by wonderhero » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:06 pm

IAMNIETZSCHE wrote:wonderhero: To me that just sounds like a win based on a better bid or possibly a broken map.
I don't know what is "broken map", but I'm glad you consider this as tactics. Some people sustain your point, so if a player will accuse me of using this tactic then I will send him to read this thread :)
IAMNIETZSCHE wrote:Nothing better to shake off the rust then taking on the current number one!
:lol: Please release me from this hard task of keeping the first position on top.
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