Players start further from the ball ?

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wonderhero
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Players start further from the ball ?

Postby wonderhero » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:07 pm

"More player deploy positions; players start further from the ball"
Indeed. Why ? This is very wrong and I can prove it theoretically and practically:

Game ID: 874, 876

I set those stats on purpose :mrgreen:

If the bot who must have the ball possession (being closer to the ball) has a negative (even normal) speed then he can be reached by the opponent bot having a higher speed stat :o

First pick of the ball shouldn't be influenced by the custom stats that is optional. You can't constrain players to not set negative speed, right ?

Why did you change the deploy positions ? Nobody complained about it.
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Neofelis
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Neofelis » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:39 pm

It seems like these kind of long distances would at least require you to be able to select which of your bots takes which position, because now you could be in trouble even with just two slow units. Even with the selection you would be in trouble with a team full of slow guys, but I I'm sure you'd learn quickly from that. But without the selection, this just makes Speed once again the most desired stat.

I've stolen the ball a fair share of times on the first turn even with the old system, so I'm not sure if the new deployment is required. Haven't played much yet, so can't say for sure, but maybe a compromise between the two would work better, if you want a bit longer first turns.
Noonzilla
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Noonzilla » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:44 pm

Yeah, I liked this idea originally and I think it could work with a bit of tweaking but current implementation can leave you in some tough starting positions.

Game 879 is an example - the defensive players start far too close to the ball. I can probably get out of this but still, it seems harsh/bad; you shouldn't start on the back foot.

I guess the fix for this is to have a limit for how close defense players can be to the ball?
wonderhero
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby wonderhero » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:06 am

Neofelis, speed will always be the most desired stat. This new deployment system wasn't made for a longer first turn. If you want this just move away your bot from ball and set wait order, but you already know this. In this way you succeeded to steal the ball :).

I don't like this deploy positions, it ruins the game. It's gambling. If a player must start with the ball then give him that ball. Otherwise put the ball in middle of map and all bots around it. Who reach it will be the lucky player.

Noonzilla, you like this idea because it's new, not because is better. Once the release is made you will rarely see something new.

Again I ask: why do you want to change something that works fine ? Who complained ?
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Omroth
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Omroth » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:32 am

Alright guys, we'll move the positions so that the offense players are much closer to the ball again.

How about the more variated positions for the rest of the teams? What's the feedback on that?

Ian
Noonzilla
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Noonzilla » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:21 pm

I'm happy to keep testing it with variated positions. I like it in the sense that you feel like you're starting on turn 2 or 3, with some of the space already being contested, rather than just starting in a flat line.

Edit: Maybe there's a balance here? Start 3 attackers near the ball and the other two in the defence's half.
Last edited by Noonzilla on Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shatteredomega
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby shatteredomega » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:46 pm

Aww - I really like the new positions, and hope it doesn't go back to what it was. It looks like an advantage for attack as much as defense, and hopefully more games that are closer to Duplicate where you need to worry about an attack right from the start rather than every game starting with having to get past a line of defenders.

Yes, it would really help if you could choose which player goes where, but besides that maybe we just need 1 or two players closer to the ball rather than putting them in a big line at the top again.

Negative speed is suicidal at the moment - but that's the fault of the stat, not the player positioning.
wonderhero
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby wonderhero » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:19 pm

shatteredomega wrote:Negative speed is suicidal at the moment - but that's the fault of the stat, not the player positioning.

The stats should have no fault and no influence on the first picking of ball.
The new positions can generate potential imbalanced things. The old positions was pretty balanced (safety).

Regarding the positions for the rest of the teams: 3 defenders in middle and 2 in separated corners. Maybe mirror for both sides.

Very bad starting positions in game 18278 (original server) for green player. All my bots start in the left bottom side of the map.

Also can you do something to avoid this bad positioning (or map design) like in game 18410 (original server) ?
shatteredomega
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby shatteredomega » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:02 am

Given the balancing of the speed stat at the moment I would agree that there needs to be adjustment to allow a safe pickup - but is it necessary to go back to having them all in a line?

If you are trying to make it fair for a low-speed team vs a high-speed team starting them at completely opposite ends of the pitch is not the answer as the low-speed team just gets blocked into a corner. If you have more exciting player positioning the other stats should come into play more.
shatteredomega
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby shatteredomega » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:30 am

Omroth wrote:Alright guys, we'll move the positions so that the offense players are much closer to the ball again.

How about the more variated positions for the rest of the teams? What's the feedback on that?


Did I misread this? Maybe having a few offense players closer and the rest of the team contesting the remainder of the pitch was what you meant Ian? If so it sounds good to me.

Wonderhero - as far as I can see the the new player layout is vertically symmetrical so 18278 wouldn't have happened. 18410 however was a bit unlucky!
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Omroth
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Omroth » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:20 am

Yeah, I'm just saying we'll move the closest offense player (or maybe two) closer to the ball so that they can get it uncontested. The other new positions will remain.

Ian
Noonzilla
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Re: Players start further from the ball ?

Postby Noonzilla » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:48 am

Omroth wrote:Yeah, I'm just saying we'll move the closest offense player (or maybe two) closer to the ball so that they can get it uncontested. The other new positions will remain.

Ian

Thumbs up from me on this.

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