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Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:33 pm

First of all, I want to mention that I am French (French people are known for being arrogant and eating frogs), that my mother tongue is not English (so I might use words that seem ok to me in French but aren’t in English) and that I am a perfectionist.
I also want to make it clear that if I took the time (weeks) to provide this feedback it is neither to get a refund (which I don’t want), nor to join mode7 (which I don’t want) nor to scorn on crappy work (which Frozen Synapse isn’t).
My goal is solely to show possible improvement where I see room for it.

If you seen anything that you like or agree with in my feedback, please say it to improve its chance to become reality.

I apologize if my thinking seems disorganized in this feedback, I didn’t write it in a single shot, it is a collection of ideas noted over time.

Terms used in my feedback: (to be consistent with my feature requests and UI changes I’ll be using terms introduced in them)

FS: Frozen Synapse the video game software
SP: singleplayer
MP: multiplayer
player: real person who plays FS
game: a game of FS against a player or the AI
in-game: when the players has left the main interface to play a game
WP: waypoint (cube where the unit goes)
path: path between 2 WP or between the first and the last WPs
unit plan: assembly of the WP, path, and orders
Plan: all units plans
MG: machinegun
SG: shotgun
RL: rocket launcher
GL: grenade launcher
DSMG: dual submachinegun
"you": the player; I feel more comfy saying "you" than "one" in English, I’m not addressing mode7 directly but any FS player
game missions types: currently known as "game modes" but doesn’t concerns the visibility part, you’ll agree that extermination, secure etc are not modes but missions
game mode: Dark, Light, Camouflage
game type: immediate or postpone
MGS: Metal Gear Solid
UI: user interface


Table of content:

# Game Concept
# Implementation
# User Interface different thread
# Campaign different thread
# Multiplayer
# Music, Sound Effects & Voices
# Development
# MP Bug Reports different thread
# SP Bug Reports different thread
# Essential Features different thread
# Whishlist different thread
# Conclusion

mode7's reply to my feedback external file
Last edited by icebrain on Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:34 pm

# Game concept

FS has a strong concept that makes people want to play it and buy it simply from knowing the genre of video game that it is.
This fact indicates that people wanted to play this genre of video game but it didn’t exist, so FS is filling an absence and a want.
The concept: the player has top down view of a map on which are walls arranged in rooms without roof and units he can control to beat the other player in a simultaneous turn based game in which units movements are not limited by distance or tile number but by 5 seconds time lapse. Planning has no limit of time but outcomes are 5 seconds long.


When I started playing FS I got addicted quickly and played fulltime for 3 days against other players, then, as quickly as I got addicted, I got bored. For every new game I played I thought "okkkkk lets plan for this unit, then simulate, then plan for the enemy, then simulate, then change my plan accordingly, ok now lets watch the outcome, ok, I killed that one and lost this one, next turn...until last turn, oh well, I won, oh, here comes another challenge..." As you can guess, I was not having fun, I was not getting anything from playing. So much that I completely stopped playing after a few weeks, and it seems to me that many players did the same, but why is that ?

For players to be willing to continue playing a video game, they must get something from it. That something depends on the video game genre. Unlike FPS or even real time strategy video games, FS isn’t about agility at all. People play FS purely to measure their skills at strategy and tactics versus other players or the AI. Planning is the phase in which you play. Outcome is the phase in which you contemplate the superiority (or realize the inferiority) of the thinking you did in the planning phase and find out with anxiety what your opponent did, if everything went as planned or not.
The problem is that planning can take (depending on the number and type of units) between a couple of minutes and quarter an hour, while the outcome only lasts 5 little seconds. In other words, your work is never fully rewarded. How to rebalance this ?
If planning is the hard work part and outcome is the enjoyable part, then simply make planning easier and outcome more enjoyable.
Planning can be made easier and thus faster by providing more information (such as "real time" field of vision, weapon range, blast radius, timestamp on WPs) and making some actions simpler (such as hitting a wall with a rocket, aiming from the path or WP and not from the order).
Outcome can be made more enjoyable by slowing down 2 or 4 times the action (currently you have to replay several time or pause to see what happened), by dramatizing the action (zoom on exchanges of fire and slow down more), by showing points earned or lost ("Kill +10pts !" see my request on scoring) as well as level ups and new medals (at the end of the game).

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:41 pm

# Implementation

FS looks very much like Metal Gear Solid VR Training while it should look like MGS story mode.
The look of FS and VR Training is the look of a non-game. In effect, VR Training started as... the tutorial for MGS.
Can you imagine what MGS would have been like if the whole game was based on VR missions ? Certainly it would have been a great little game, but so much more could have been done by its potential.

The issue with using a simulated kind of environment (uniform and monochrome) is that it’s basically abstract and thus prevents any attachment from the player to it. In FS not only every wall, every room and therefore every map (!) look the same, but they also look like nothing recognizable. You can’t tell if a room is an office, a lab command center or whatever. Now imagine if you related one of your FS game to a friend who never saw it, you would be repeating wall and room many times because that’s all the only terms you could use and your friend would make a dull or confused face because he couldn’t picture your story.
In brief, such design is not fun.
Can you imagine most games with randomly generated levels ? No. A good map must tell a story, this is why it needs to be handcrafted. The feature list mentioned handcrafted maps, but except a handful in the Campaign, I haven’t recognized any.
How come I haven’t seen any circular or diagonal wall ?! In the Campaign I saw 8bit kind of circular walls, why is that ? FS isn’t retro styled nor based on tiles. Does the engine or AI choke on non rectangular ? That would surprise me.



The game Commandos 2: Men of Courage and FS are VERY similar except that Commandos is real time.
Both games are about hiding, seeing and eliminating threats with the control of several units with distinct abilities in top view.
Both games mechanics are of the "if I can see you I can shoot you", yet one has very detailed, different and realistic environment, the other hasn’t.
Video games can be much more than board games, yet FS looks like a chess game with a boring deck.
There’s no need to go as far as adding more complex 3D element, just changing the textures of the simple walls can create a recognizable environment. But currently the cold dark blue style that has been applied to everything is preventing this.

FS being a top down view type of game where no other view is necessary as it is the case with most strategy games, it could have been in 2D, yet it is in 3D. The benefits of 3D are notably 3D views & movements, realistic animations & environment. But FS has none of those benefits, worst, it brings a serious issue because we are forced to move the camera to see behind a wall.
Commandos 3 added 3D elements but it didn’t enhance the experience, on the contrary.
mode7 is a Torque Game Engine specialists but doesn’t show it. In effect, Torque Engines allows for beautiful games, yet FS seems deprived of most if not all possible special effects. Spectacular explosions, dynamic light reflections, realistic textures etc are missing.
FS has about the same graphic level as Determinance released over 4 years ago !
It’s true that graphics don’t make a good game, the concept does, but in video game you have the word video, which means that everything is about graphics and eye candy is always nice to have.


It seems that as soon as mode7 found the concept of FS, it jumped right into coding (which I agree is exciting) without much second thoughts or planning. No major feature has been added over a year since first release of FS and "suddenly few weeks before final release, half of the game (skirmish generator, campaign, music, new interface) is added ! Previous game Determinance has also suffered from this lake of organization; it’s evident that its innovative concept of directing the sword was ill-adapted to the mouse and should have been developed for the Wiimote or at least a handheld touchscreen device, yet it was released on PC. This is surprising when we consider that "Mode 7 also enjoys consulting on early-stage software projects".


In my opinion mode7 is unconsciously making the video game that they would like to play and targeting FS at people who resemble them: other independent developers, programmers of all kinds, hardcore gamers and not at the general public.
I get this impression from a few things Omroth said on the forum, on the blog and on IRC. But a concrete example is the option to use custom colors for units, frankly, who other than a programmer is going to be able to set the color of his choice with that RGB input form ?
I say "unconsciously" because FS is reviewed on many video game sites and is planned for release on Steam, those are signs of a large audience, not a niche.
So mode7 is going to release a hardcore gamers’ video game to the general public. The problem with that is, I believe, that the general public has higher expectations.


One could regret the choice of the hi-tech/sci-fi theme because it’s the least original possible theme. It’s so not original that it was the one chosen for Determinance !!! (notice the orthogonal snakes in both interface) How could such different games have the same theme ? Where is the link while playing those games with a hi-tech/sci-fi theme ? There are evident links in the Campaign, but not outside of it. There would be if units were using plasma guns, teleporters and the likes.
Frozen Synapse is a great name. It might be a bit too far fetched but people will remember it for this reason.
I say too far fetched because it’s difficult to guess what genre of video game it is. And unless it’s explained to you you can’t either guess why it’s name like this. At this point there’s another thing to regret, the fact that the name has been forgotten while developing the video game. Except the cold dark blue color scheme, I don’t see other references to Frozen and none to Synapse. The world described in the Campaign didn’t either recall me the name of the video game.
Looks at those pictures, don’t they inspire you ? FS could have had a radically different look.
Image Image
Last edited by icebrain on Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:52 pm

Moved to separate thread.
Last edited by icebrain on Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:53 pm

# Multiplayer

The critical issue with MP is that it is impossible to play the game that you want with the player that you want when you want.
*1 It is badly implemented to the point that mode7 added a delete game feature (hence the fact that people didn't want to play some games they were asked to play), this was of course the wrong solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Now the delete game feature has been replaced by a hide game feature because deleted games signaled to the other player that he had been playing for nothing and that made him angry.

Remember when you were a kid, you knew who you wanted to play with and you always asked those persons if they wanted to play with you and they would answer you Yes, No or Yes but only for 10 minutes (or other conditions). And remember again how pissed off you were when the other didn’t finish the game you started with him.
In FS there are 4 ways to play a new game.
• by setting your status to "actively searching for a game" : you can choose which mission type to play but not who will be your opponent (in fact it would make no sense, but you might still prefer to play against certain players)
• by setting your status to "available for a game" : you still choose which mission type but not when anymore
• by challenging a specific player (from the online list or his profile): you do choose your opponent and the mission type but you do not know if he wants to play now, against you and that mission type
• by being challenged the same way : in this case you choose neither the opponent, nor the mission type nor when but you can decline
by setting your status to "I am not available for a game": this is the 5th way that shouldn’t exist but you still receive challenges with this status. The 2 previous ways should also not occur when your status is not available.

It is important to notice that the game is created (it exist on the server) as soon as the challenge is made and is not deleted when the challenge is refused. I even doubt that the challenger is notified of the refusal since I personally see players challenging me over and over even if I decline, as a result many never-to-be-played games are listed in our active games list.
Another important point to notice is that it is never guaranteed that your opponent is going to stay for the next 30 minutes to finish the game you just started, worse, that he will ever finish it. So you are left alone with the game, perhaps you wasted 15 minutes planning your best strategy.
Last important note; at no time before accepting the challenge it is possible to see which units are involved (you might not want to play against explosive ones) and how is the map (you might prefer big symmetrical).


To summarize and to be clear, it is crucial that :
1) you can only challenge and be challenged when the availability, the accepted mission types (and game modes and game type) and units and map and opponents are known
2) you never play for nothing and are able to finish every games even if your opponent isn’t playing anymore.

Over a 1 year period more than 4000 multiplayers have registered an account of which I estimate that around 3000 bought the game, yet, after that one year, the number of most players connected at the same time is only of between 0 and 6-12 ! And among those, many are new players.
This means to me that the community is not growing, and I’m convinced that it is mostly due to the planning & outcome issue described before, to this issue and to the next one.


The second major issue is that it is not possible to communicate permanently with another player.
The in game IRC chat having never worked for me and registered players not necessarily being there and under the same name, the only moment when it’s possible to chat with your opponent is when he has the game loaded. But as soon as he does something else like simply playing another game, or going to the MP window, your messages don’t reach him anymore. Same for him, he can’t message you when he’s elsewhere. Unsurprisingly, there’s no way to chat to several players at the same time nor to all connected players. It’s also not possible to send a message to an offline player, as it would be pleasant to do when resuming playing after several days.

It was hard to believe that the server was already slow with as few as a dozen players (since I believe, very little information is exchanged, less than for a webpage)! Needless to say that such limitation will prevent the growth of the MP community (if it didn’t already).
The server was said to be faster with MP 2011-03-11 and it was for some aspect but was slower for others.
Perhaps it is the same server that is hosting frozensynpase.com or mode7games.com (which is slow, 200KB/s to download the game).
MP of course needs a fast dedicated server.


There are basically 2 kind of multiplayers:
- those who connect from time to time, stay online for the time of a few tunrs, want to play a video game to kill time, are not interested in exchanging with other players (no chat) and consider them like AI but smarter.
- those who connect regularly, stay online for several games, want to "invest" in FS (level up etc), like to discuss the game while being played.
These 2 kind do not want to have the same experience but are put there to play together. The solution to make both happy is to provide a game type for each: "immediate" and "postpone" (better terms yet to be found) - see my essential feature requests for detail.

*UPDATE 1
Last edited by icebrain on Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:00 pm

# Music

The songs do match the game (as it is at time of writing) so in this aspect it is a success.
The tactical espionage theme (whose keywords are among others: uncertainty, courage, death, treason, danger, dilemma) seems to have been respected although it could be diversified for example to match specific missions/briefings of the campaign or to match planning as opposed to outcome or to match the MP mission types or to differentiate Light games from Dark ones.

I’ve listened separately to all the songs and found that some songs are too dynamic. I feel the need to bring to back to mind that FS is a pure reflection game with zero action and no time pressure. You’re hidden behind a wall watching your enemies and thinking a strategy to take them out. And of course it’s not played in real time.
So the 'boom boom chick" that can be heard in some of the songs (for example after 0:40 in A Functionning God) is disruptive of the ambiance, also is the piano melody - I think both are too "clear" and perhaps piano is the wrong instrument here (if it is piano indeed).
Most songs start really great and are right onto the theme, but they turn out into something too dynamic and too clear (sorry for lake of jargon) and sometime too burdened and sound like cheap techno. I also find that they are also a little bit too jovial, which doesn’t fit the sad emotions required by the theme.

In my mind I picture a swamp, a castle or darkness, where weird distant deaf noises makes me very uncertain of what is going on.

• A Functioning God: boom boom chick is disruptive, melody is too clear
• Concentrate: boom boom chick is disruptive here and out of place
• Deeper: not sure where this one belongs - turns into audio soup after 1:20
• Focus: too dynamic - the "tana na na na nananana" trumpet does match the theme and could be given more importance - too burdened after 0:32 - seems like a different song after 0:50
• Menu : does match
• Nightpath : does match - boom boom chick is acceptable here
• Schism: does match - boom boom chick is acceptable here - perhaps the voices could be less "enlightened"
• Switch: boom boom chick is disruptive, tiring like a hammer or hard rock
• The Plan: does match
• Triumph V2: melody perhaps too enlightened - turns into audio soup after 1:00 and worse after 1:40
• Welcome to Markov Geist: no comments

If FS’s soundtracks had to ripped off from another work it should safely be from MGS.

CODEC used is lossless is Ogg Vorbis which makes the game file size much bigger. It might seem ridiculous to quibble over a few tens of MB when nowadays games are several GB but a small file size still has advantages such as upload/download speed and bandwidth cost. Plus I believe it is safe to downgrade to lossy AAC since it is the quality used by the public (iTMS/iPod).
Of course if the album is sold separately it should be lossless. (For some reason mode7 prefers the other way around.)


# Sound effects

SP 2011-4-3 brought new weapons sounds that I think are more realistic. However the impact sounds have a metallic rendering that doesn’t match the environment because I don’t consider the walls being in metal.
The SG reload sound is as loud as the shot itself. I don’t remember hearing the Sniper reload but it’s expected.
Sounds were added to WPs, they are too aggressive, I would prefer a soft click kind of sound.

# Voices

Voices have not been given enough importance, yet the voice is a very powerful tool for a video game as it ads many things to the characters, the ambiance and the action. Hiring an actor is expensive, perhaps a good synthesized voice could be used somehow in the campaign.
Units don’t talk either. They could speak during planing for each order you give them. During the outcome they could shout when being shot at and when dying, also when spotting an enemy (check) or encountering one.
I would prefer this to the cold system voice that says "please login" and "tank you".
Last edited by icebrain on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:01 pm

# Development

• MP 2010-4-19
Having bought the game on the 2011-2-23 I was particularly disappointed to find that it was in such early stage (by early i mean tardiness) and that no more recent version had been released (not counting the patch, said not to be stable).
Even knowing the list of future features, I didn’t feel the game was worth 19€ especially when compared to the level of cheaper or even free games. It’s true that I got 2 copies for the price of one, but I can’t say that I got something more.

• MP 2011-3-11
Considering what was added in this version (better AI, Skirmish, UI enhancements) and that the previous version came out 11 months before one could wonder with reason if FS is a game being developed full-time. And it could be full time if the following estimation is correct:
4000 multiplayers less 25% free keys multiplied by $25.99 less 2.5% of fees divided by 12 months divided by 2 game designers equals $3167.90 (2189,42€) per month which is very comfortable.

While the UI answered various requests, it also became more visually burdened, the profile page and game page look like puzzles. It also didn’t improve on information organization.

The encounter details ("I have superior cover" etc) has disappeared ! It is vital for progressing and for this reason it must absolutely be brought back !

I don’t see the use of the "Show…" options, everything there is required to play, why would I hide them ?
The Plan Layers feature is quite obscure and I think that to solve the problem the size of the path and WPs could simply be reduced.

I Don’t know what slightly favored could possibly mean especially on a symmetric map.
What does Very Dark and other Skirmish features mean ?

Surprised not to find a changelog anywhere and that the version in the readme was not up to date.

I think it was in this version that pathfinding was ameliorated, it’s smarter around corners but you manually put a WP as close as possible to a cover, pathfinding will place the next WP very far from the cover because the unit would be blocked. Being blocked is the other issue; I shouldn’t be able to place any WP that is going to block the unit.

• MP 2011-4-14
The new look of the UI (translucent with only borders) as well as the new FS background and various logos give it a more finished touch.
On a sidenote:
- The transparency is too high for when 2 of those windows are superimposed as text becomes unreadable.
- The background’s integrated circuits drawings fade in and out way too quickly which brings the attention to them while a background must be forgotten.
- The Unit & Planning window was given an awkward inverted colors look instead of taking the same direction as the rest of the UI.
- There is inconsistency in the Modes window where buttons seem to be all already selected but the selection is a stronger white gradient, different from the one used in the Main Menu.
- The path and aiming of enemies have become red while mine (green) have stayed white.

• MP 2011-4-20
In the Result screen, the Rating is not clear what it is. I just see integrated circuits.
AI Level 4 has (regrettably) disappeared.
Order of Chat messages is reversed. I don’t know of any chat software that does this, few will find it more intuitive.

• SP 2011-4-1 (spoiler free)
A skip dialogue button is missing, it’s useful when I’m restarting a mission which has prior communications (every 3 levels).
The mission’s name is only known after it is won, not even after it’s lost. It should be displayed while playing.
The menus (help, quit, main, option etc) don’t appear on the Campaign screen.
In the Communications window it’s not made clear who is talking to who.
The mission briefing doesn’t appear once I regenerate the map. A player might not want to read it until he’s happy with the map.
Scoring is very odd. I expect it to be based on kills, losses, saves and objectives (pick up objects).
I find it absurd that Campaign maps can be regenerated. It causes me not to be able to relate to another player because we didn’t have the same experience. I also cannot compare my score to his for that same reason. It would be very exciting to compete against other players for the best scores (see my table) just like it was done for MGS VR Training.
I noticed that the MG had the advantage versus SG if it was aiming and had first visual. I’m not sure that this is the best way to rebalance both units because now I’m going to aim with the SG all the time and the MG will lose every time it will try to make use of that advantage (making it useless). In addition it slows down the SG which is supposed to be a fast close range unit.
Last edited by icebrain on Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:19 pm

# Conclusion

I see 3 possible direction FS can take toward final release:

1) Do as initially planned: don’t add new feature, don’t change anything and release final version in late May.
I see 3 inconvenient in this case;
- it’s my opinion that while FS is likely to be a commercial success (many sales) it will in the long run appear disappointing to players, they will stop playing it (rather quickly) and the online community’s presence will not follow the sales’s growth.
- later changes will be unwelcome by a part of the then larger userbase
- later new essential features will come too late to make up for the disappointment.
2) Take the time to add the features and changes I listed as essentials.
FS will then reach a satisfying base of features for a "solid video game". There won’t be any major lacuna and later features will only be extras. The online community’s presence will match the sales and even stay high after the sales drops.
3) Take all necessary time to release a perfect video game.
FS will blow people’s mind, be remembered in history of video games and will still be played after 10 years.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by mizzu » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:18 pm

icebrain wrote: FS looks very much like Metal Gear Solid VR Training while it should look like MGS story mode.
Who says this? IMO it looks good, the concept works fine for me.
icebrain wrote:A good map must tell a story, this is why it needs to be handcrafted. The feature list mentioned handcrafted maps, but except a handful in the Campaign, I haven’t recognized any.
Well there are some on the forum, but you are right I would apreciate more handmade maps. Maybe include maps of the library folder (which already is huge) in the normal MP mode (= not a game you have prepared, just a random match chosen by the traffic-light-thingie). Also a real tutorial for using the editor would be great. (is there one? I don't know)
icebrain wrote: How come I haven’t seen any circular or diagonal wall ?! In the Campaign I saw 8bit kind of circular walls, why is that ? FS isn’t retro styled nor based on tiles. Does the engine or AI choke on non rectangular ? That would surprise me.
I agree
icebrain wrote: In my opinion mode7 is unconsciously making the video game that they would like to play and targeting FS at people who resemble them: other independent developers, programmers of all kinds, hardcore gamers and not at the general public.
I, for one, am actually fine with that.
icebrain wrote: The second major issue is that it is not possible to communicate permanently with another player.
The in game IRC chat having never worked for me and registered players not necessarily being there and under the same name, the only moment when it’s possible to chat with your opponent is when he has the game loaded.
This. A simple message system would do it.
icebrain wrote: [...] - those who connect from time to time, stay online for the time of a few tunrs, want to play a video game to kill time, are not interested in exchanging with other players (no chat) and consider them like AI but smarter.[...]
About "left over" games in general: Why not say, if one party doesn't connect to the game for, I don't know, 2 weeks, let the AI handle it, since it is pretty damn clever. If the active player has a low level, he would get a dumber AI and if he wins against it, he gets the points. The lurky player, of course wouldn't get anything, no win, no points, even if the AI only does one single turn. (I smell abusing, god damnit)

I didn't read the "sound" post, but gave a look at the voices part, and my opinion is this: God forbid more talking/voiceacting in this game. Just doesn't match the VR-like athmosphere.

I think the game wouldn't suffer a bit more work, but I don't talk about graphical or musical overhaul. Actually, those things are done very well. I suggest looking over the "Wishlist" thread again and noting the ideas that fit the game and its spirit and allow more freedom to the player.

Icebrain, could you please put the SP stuff in spoilers (or maybe you know, post it in the appropriate forum)? I didn't read the last post cause of this.

Edit: Nevermind, it's harmless.
Last edited by mizzu on Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:38 pm

mizzu wrote: About "left over" games in general: Why not say, if one party doesn't connect to the game for, I don't know, 2 weeks, let the AI handle it, since it is pretty damn clever. If the active player has a low level, he would get a dumber AI and if he wins against it, he gets the points. The lurky player, of course wouldn't get anything, no win, no points, even if the AI only does one single turn. (I smell abusing, god damnit)
I'm totally against this, it's absurd. If you start a game against a human it's not to finish it against an AI ! And what if the AI wins ?!! Best solution I can see is the one I suggested: autosubmit turn after delay.

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mizzu
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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by mizzu » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:38 pm

icebrain wrote:
mizzu wrote: About "left over" games in general: Why not say, if one party doesn't connect to the game for, I don't know, 2 weeks, let the AI handle it, since it is pretty damn clever. If the active player has a low level, he would get a dumber AI and if he wins against it, he gets the points. The lurky player, of course wouldn't get anything, no win, no points, even if the AI only does one single turn. (I smell abusing, god damnit)
I'm totally against this, it's absurd. If you start a game against a human it's not to finish it against an AI ! And what if the AI wins ?!! Best solution I can see is the one I suggested: autosubmit turn after delay.
By saying "autosubmit" you mean that the lurkers turn will simply be empty (because he obviously didn't give his units any orders) and the playing guy gets a free win? If victories like that don't count on the ladder, then I'm okay with this, but otherwise, meh.
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limavictor426
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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by limavictor426 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:08 am

Feedback from limavictor426 directed to Icebrain re his above comments.....

Dude....if you were a games programmer and was browsing the forum for feedback would you read the amount of text you have written here....no way im going to and I doubt many people would. Keep it short and pertinent...it might actually get read then. No offense, it just makes me laugh when I see posts like this one....you might have a lot of time on your hands but I doubt the people writing this game have :D Probably the only person who has read all of this is you :shock:
"Good play inspires luck,bad players moan about it"
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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by icebrain » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:37 pm

limavictor426 wrote:Feedback from limavictor426 directed to Icebrain re his above comments.....

Dude....if you were a games programmer and was browsing the forum for feedback would you read the amount of text you have written here....no way im going to and I doubt many people would. Keep it short and pertinent...it might actually get read then. No offense, it just makes me laugh when I see posts like this one....you might have a lot of time on your hands but I doubt the people writing this game have :D Probably the only person who has read all of this is you :shock:
I would read absolutely all feedback. If you wouldn't then we could tell from the quality of your game.
mode7 people do have time to read it (it takes 10min) since they are independent and thus don't have a boss pressuring them for a mandatory release date. They even take days off.
In case you haven't notice, feedback on FS is rare (except bug reports and feature requests) and feedback of this length is exceptional, if it happened every day then you would be right.
I could have written my feedback under the short form of "there's too much of this, remove some of that" but I find it rude. Instead I developed my argumentation until I felt my idea was exposed. And I believe I stayed pertinent most of the time.

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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by limavictor426 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:13 pm

Can you digest 10 mins worth of reading without going back over it and making notes..I cant. Just because you dont like something dosnt make you rude, thats your opinion.
Sorry dude, not meaning to be confrontational or to offend you, just think that you are wasting your time with posts that long.
If you want my advice (and im sure you dont) Choose 3 things you would change and post these concisely in a few salient points. Be a lot easier for the guys who have to read all this stuff and it wouldnt come across like you are ripping their game to pieces.
Like I said, no offense :D I wont post here again :D
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Re: Feedback by icebrain - main thread

Post by wonderhero » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:13 am

Icebrain you have to consider that is only a single programmer and Omroth is not a robot.
We have to focus on some priority issues: bugs and challenge system.

About "starting a game" is necessary that both players to be agree, after they see the map and units as you said Icebrain. For this, after the challenge is made, I see two ways:

1. "Accept / Decline" button for both players, no matter who is challenger. This request some program coding.
2. As is now, but the game will be auto deleted after 7 days if both players didn't play first turn. (easy way for Omroth)


About "left over" games I see one way:
Introducing a DEADLINE for player in that game. This value decrease for the player which the system is waiting for his turn. If the values reach to 0 the opponent win. If this deadline is 1 month the game will last maximum 2 months.

About "boring" and "play for nothing" is useless to discuss. If you don't want to get boring then play with patience, attention, thinking deep and not superficially. This is available in real world (life) too :)

About "randomly generated levels" it's fun cause of the surprising both teams in a dangerous positions :). But also can be unbalance :(

About "the story for each map" I'm not interested in this, but I like to play balanced maps made by human.
icebrain wrote:Outcome can be made more enjoyable by slowing down 2 or 4 times the action (currently you have to replay several time or pause to see what happened), by dramatizing the action (zoom on exchanges of fire and slow down more)...
I total agree with that. Specially "timestamp".
icebrain wrote: and making some actions simpler (such as hitting a wall with a rocket, aiming from the path or WP and not from the order).
I'm not agree with that.
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